The cost of driving an EV?

[Triglide]

I’m struggling to understand what it will cost to make the electricity to power my CT. It costs energy to make energy, right? So, is driving an EV 500 miles cheaper than an ICE 500 miles? Also, is it environmentally more friendly to drive an EV when you consider everything that goes into making the electricity to power my CT?

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[Newton]

im sure some 1 with more details will chime in. this is very simplified

- I calculated the cost to be about the same as driving a 45-55mpg petrol car.
but of course this varies based on how much you pay for electricity. (or petrol)
- if you used JUST superchargers... an internet site says it average of 28cents per kilowatt/hr and you battery might hold 100 kilowatt hours...

so .28*100= 28$ to fill up the entire cars battery pack which might get you 300 miles.

a 45mpg gas car can go 300 miles on 6.6 gallons of gas, if gas is 3$ a gallon then thats $20

- MANY studies have shown that using energy from the grid for ev's is more environmentally healthy than driving a petrol car.

based on internet searches...
petrol cars are like 25% efficient, so you only get 25% of your fuels energy used to power the car.(the rest is mostly wasted as heat)
ev's are like 75% efficient
large generators that make you homes electricity are like 35-60% efficient.

also your home energy can be using a mix of renewables and fossil fuel based generators.

 

[Iacemoe]

I posted this in a previous thread regarding what it would cost to drive 200miles in a CT vs an ICE equivalent. Like Newton said, it depends on your local price of fossil fuel and electricity rates.

Note that most areas have off peak rates for overnight which you can inquire about from your local provider. Basically, for my situation it will cost around $10 for a 200 mile trip in a CT. That assumes you charge at home. Newton listed supercharger rates which are helpful to calculate long distance trips. Keep in mind you can charge fully before you leave to keep costs down.

The grid in the US is still dominated by coal / fossil fuels but that appears to be changing. Renewables are definitely altering the landscape. The government is also aggressively subsidizing renewables and will most likely ramp up more heavily in the future with the Biden administration calling the shots. Most projections show semi-linear growth of renewables into the near future (2040ish). I don't think it will be a true S curve, but linear seems a little slow to my mind. Time will tell.

Below is an interesting chart that shows the U.S. subsidy resource allocation matrix. I definitely understand why the 5 billion is still spent on subsidizing fossil fuels, would just be nice to see those funds spent on a more forward looking basis. It's cliche to say "just follow the money", but in this case I think it's clear that renewables are going to be a growing part of the energy infrastructure.

" A 2017 study by the consulting firm Management Information Services, Inc. (MISI)[54] estimated the total historical federal subsidies for various energy sources over the years 1950–2016. The study found that oil, natural gas, and coal received $414 billion, $140 billion, and $112 billion (2015 dollars) "

Its tough to project accurately since we don't know the actual efficiency of the CT yet, or the kwh pack size.

Assume the tri-motor is a 200kwh pack. 200 kwh / 500miles of range = 0.4kwh per mile or 400wh/mile.

Then use the electricity rates in your area to determine your costs. In my area its about 12c/kwh. Charger efficiency at 95%. 200miles * 0.4kwh/mile = 80kwh / 0.95(charger efficiency) = 84.2 kwh required to charge. 84.2 kwh * 12c/kwh = $10.10

So less than half probably, but it all comes down to electricity rates in your area and the true efficiency of the CT.

Anyway, I hoped this helped a little. Feel free to do your own calculations and find out for yourself if an EV is right for you. It's crazy but this work from home trend might shift the numbers depending on how fossil fuel prices are impacted moving forward in the U.S. and beyond.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

We charge our Model 3 at home and we are paying 1/3-1/2 of what we paid to fill the Mazda CX5. But there are no oil changes and fewer visits (none so far) to the dealer, and perhaps never having to replace brake pads.

 

[FullyGrounded]

The simplicity is this: At my home I will have a solar system that will fully provide for my EVs, because the sun shines. Now, I have also seen charge stations out in the world with solar panels to supply the stations. So, you have to manufacture the PV panels, the cages and racks, the nuts and bolts, the wiring, the controllers and inverters, and other misc necessities. Then...

...no ship wrecks dumping millions of gallons of crude oil in the fragile ecosystem (Valdez, BP, etc). No extraction of those billions of gallons of oil from the earth, leaving what... voids? And then processing of those billions of gallons to create something usable. Wait, and we're asking how driving EVs will be better for the environment? I've just gotten started... shall we continue? peace

 

[Firetruck41]

At my electricity cost of 8 cents per kw, my Bolt is about equivalent to an ICE that gets 120mpg.

 

[SSonnentag]

 

[SSonnentag]

Electric prices vary greatly. My S costs roughly 1/3 of what an equivalent gas car would cost to fuel. Then there's the other maintenance savings on top of that.

However, in my case, we have solar at home that offsets roughly 95% of our yearly electricity usage and I get free charging while at work and free supercharging. So I've paid roughly $40 out of pocket for electricity to drive my S just over 100,000 miles.

 

[DarinCT]

Also, is it environmentally more friendly to drive an EV when you consider everything that goes into making the electricity to power my CT?

This could be a short book so I'll try to sum up.

Environmentally, green house gases (ghg) and NOx (Nitrogen Oxide variants) are what is typically measured from the combustion of gas. There are, of course, other chemicals that affect the environment but when measuring EV vs ICE, these are typically the two that are measured.

The impact is important to consider. ICE vehicles impact locally whereas the fossil fuel power generations for an EV is both far away and spread across a greater area. I did not specify if the impact is more or less because it depends on a lot of factors.

Broadly speaking, as of today, when a vehicle passes somewhere between 40 and 60 mpg, the environmental impact flips to EVs. This has so many caveats that push the needle lower than 40 (dirty energy production, type of environmental impact, total life of vehicle vs apples-to-apples) to greater than 60mpg (efficient batteries, clean and/or renewable energy mix) as well as if you're talking about ghg or specific NOx.

The bigger issue is that the trend is toward cleaner fuel production. This will also push the needle toward higher mpg for equivalency.

A note about the picture from @SSonnentag from https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichm...s-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why :

MPGe is a standard made by a bureaucrat. Don't get me wrong, some (very little) amount of bureaucracy is necessary but this was the EPA trying to compare ICE to EV with physics. The way the epa does it (MPGe, the thing on the sticker of the car) is not the way that the authors do it (mpg equivalent) or necessarily how the next person does it. I personally think the blog does a great job explaining all the different factors that go into the calculation so I'll end here.

 

[Crissa]

I created a sheet showing comparative costs for ICE vs EV over here https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...or-at-a-tesla-charging-station.286/post-30273

This is pretty simple:

This is per-gallon for gas vs per mpg. So it's n cents per mile, right?

		gas $
		$2.00	$3.00	$4.00
mpg	50	$0.04	$0.06	$0.08
	30	$0.07	$0.10	$0.13
	25	$0.08	$0.12	$0.16
	20	$0.10	$0.15	$0.20

And here's electricity:

		kWh $
		$0.10	$0.20	$0.30
Wh/mi	100	$0.01	$0.02	$0.03
	225	$0.02	$0.05	$0.07
	350	$0.04	$0.07	$0.11
	500	$0.05	$0.10	$0.15

So electricity straight up wins for cheapness.

But! These numbers aren't apples to apples: The gasoline car also has oil and maintenance of about $300/3000 miles. The electric doesn't have engine filters and oil and coolant etc. They both have some maintenance, but it's not every 3000-5000 miles. That's a base 10¢ a mile more than the electric car.

So with per mile maintenance, the per mile cost is:

		gas $
		$2.00	$3.00	$4.00
mpg	50	$0.14	$0.16	$0.18
	30	$0.17	$0.20	$0.23
	25	$0.18	$0.22	$0.26
	20	$0.20	$0.25	$0.30

So multiply that by your miles in a year, and that's money saved that you can (and probably will) pay in battery. At least for the Cybertruck. But remember, you won't be wedded to a specific set of fossil fluids, you can run it inside a garage, etc.

Now, road-trip prices can be crazy. I've spent dollars on kWhs at a charger... But Tesla has comitted to only passing on what their electricity cost is. It won't be your home numbers, but it'll still not need engine maintenance!

Towing numbers:

Wh/mi	900	$0.09	$0.18	$0.27
mpg	10	$0.30	$0.40	$0.50

100 Wh/mi (337 mpge) == Zero Motorcycle
50 mpg == Motorcycle, Prius
225 Wh/mi (150 mpge) == Model 3
30 mpg == Mid-size car
350 Wh/mi (95 mpge)== Cybertruck
25 mpg == mid-size truck
500 Wh/mi (67 mpge) == Cybertruck towing
20 mpg == full-size truck

$3.17 a gallon == my local price
$0.31 a kWh == my local price (solar/renewable mix at peak)
$2.11 a gallon == US average
$0.13 a kWh == US average

-Crissa

 

[egandalf]

So, you have to manufacture the PV panels, the cages and racks, the nuts and bolts, the wiring, the controllers and inverters, and other misc necessities.

I had panels installed last year; enough to cover roughly 70% of my total annual usage (I'll come up with real calculations in June).

Something else to bear in mind is that these costs are almost entirely a one-time cost that produces electricity for 25+ years. Most panels I looked at were guaranteed at 80% efficiency for 20 years anyway. The only additional costs are maintenance, which is rare. If a microinverter goes out, my local installer comes out and swaps it for me thanks to that warranty.

So ya don't have to keep feeding the machine for decades like you do with coal or gas peaker plants (or ICE cars). You just let the sun be the sun and win.

Folks who like to hate on EVs and panels often only look at the up-front costs, whether financial or environmental. When you spread that cost over even 10 years, the outlook is MUCH different. Spread it over 20? Nothing but gains.

 

[android04]

We don't have enough specs yet for Cybertruck to give you exact data, but this website (Carbon Counter) lets you compare vehicle costs and emissions. You can tap on the points to get info on which car it is, or search for specific vehicles to highlight in the graph. You can also customize the data based on where you live, any tax credits and taxes, fuel costs, etc.

 

[OneLapper]

I did some napkin math on the CT, my house electric bill, and compared that to the 40mpg diesel car I have.

Connecticut now has some of the most expensive electricity in the country, and because of that, there's little to no cost savings to propel the CT vs my diesel car.

A majority of the savings is going to be in maintenance. And that will add up for me, especially since my BMW is a effin' nightmare when it comes to the diesel emissions hardware. I'll be savings hundreds a month.

Now that I'm over 200k miles on my car, I'm averaging $300/mo. in maintenance. And that doesn't include fixing the body damage from a-holes in parking lots and NJ gas attendants that damaged the fuel door, not once, but twice! Who the efff hits the fuel door with the nozzle to close it????

 

[Triglide]

This could be a short book so I'll try to sum up.

Environmentally, green house gases (ghg) and NOx (Nitrogen Oxide variants) are what is typically measured from the combustion of gas. There are, of course, other chemicals that affect the environment but when measuring EV vs ICE, these are typically the two that are measured.

The impact is important to consider. ICE vehicles impact locally whereas the fossil fuel power generations for an EV is both far away and spread across a greater area. I did not specify if the impact is more or less because it depends on a lot of factors.

Broadly speaking, as of today, when a vehicle passes somewhere between 40 and 60 mpg, the environmental impact flips to EVs. This has so many caveats that push the needle lower than 40 (dirty energy production, type of environmental impact, total life of vehicle vs apples-to-apples) to greater than 60mpg (efficient batteries, clean and/or renewable energy mix) as well as if you're talking about ghg or specific NOx.

The bigger issue is that the trend is toward cleaner fuel production. This will also push the needle toward higher mpg for equivalency.

A note about the picture from @SSonnentag from https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichm...s-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why :

MPGe is a standard made by a bureaucrat. Don't get me wrong, some (very little) amount of bureaucracy is necessary but this was the EPA trying to compare ICE to EV with physics. The way the epa does it (MPGe, the thing on the sticker of the car) is not the way that the authors do it (mpg equivalent) or necessarily how the next person does it. I personally think the blog does a great job explaining all the different factors that go into the calculation so I'll end here.

Thx.

 

[ThomasG]

What's the cost of the battery? Monetary and environment? Up to the point the battery has to be replaced, I think EV's make a dramatic win on operating costs, particularly for commuting. What does it cost to replace a battery on a Cybertruck and what is involved with recycling? There are plant recycling EV batteries now, but how effective is it? Just asking for curiosity, not trying to rain on a parade or anything. I really like EV's for a number of reasons, but everything in life is two edged and cuts both ways.

There is also the issue of replacing portions of the grid to feed power to locations where EV's will be charged. Ideally, everyone will wind up with solar on the roof, but that expense is not inconsequential and could well discourage some. Most will charge at night which helps the grid in most locations, but requires the end user to have batteries for solar and enough capacity to allow for cloudy days. If one does 50 miles/day, what is the cost of solar and batteries to maintain an EV?