Nikola Badger pickup

[VI Tesla]

can't get over the dumb name. what's next, HENRY motors?

And they had the gall to sue Tesla, because the door on Tesla's semi looked too much like Nikola's.

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[K Doc Brown 007]

Be open minded y’all. As I read posts, many seem too fanatic and as such have (boring) tunnel vision. Competition is awesome. It brings the best out of the best. Magic wasn’t Magic without Bird. Wilt wasn’t Wilt without Russell. Brady ain’t Brady without Manning or Brees.... and so on... I welcome creative thoughts from Nikola. After all, it’ll make Elon even better....

 

[Newton]

Be open minded y’all. As I read posts, many seem too fanatic and as such have (boring) tunnel vision. Competition is awesome. It brings the best out of the best. Magic wasn’t Magic without Bird. Wilt wasn’t Wilt without Russell. Brady ain’t Brady without Manning or Brees.... and so on... I welcome creative thoughts from Nikola. After all, it’ll make Elon even better....

I'm all for new interesting concepts but this one isn't progressing forward (in my opinion) Like alot of people are saying hydrogen as of right now is bad. probably actually WORSE for the environment than straight petrol. I'm not sure about others but anti-pollution is one of the main reasons I'm getting an ev.

 

[Hunter Sawyer]

Be open minded y’all. As I read posts, many seem too fanatic and as such have (boring) tunnel vision. Competition is awesome. It brings the best out of the best. Magic wasn’t Magic without Bird. Wilt wasn’t Wilt without Russell. Brady ain’t Brady without Manning or Brees.... and so on... I welcome creative thoughts from Nikola. After all, it’ll make Elon even better....

I don't mind the competition. Hell my first choice was the Bollinger until they released the price. The problem is that hydrogen is an unproven technology that has no infrastructure, is expensive, and all around just worse than EVs. Rivian, Bollinger, and even Atlis have a better chance of bringing a superior product to market IF the Badger actually gets there.

 

[Ehninger1212]

The Lordstown Endurance has a better chance than the Badger. 4 electric motors, 600 HP, 250 mile range and tows 7500 pounds. It will start at $52.5k and the official unveiling is later this month. The body shell looks like the previous generation Chevy 1500(?) My guess is that they kept the styling traditional to help appeal to Midwest buyers, keep them in their comfort zone so to speak.

I agree it has a much better chance. Realistic specs and a realistic price tag. If Tesla wasn't launching the CyberTruck i would have been watching this closely.

 

[ajdelange]

The problem is that hydrogen is an unproven technology that has no infrastructure, is expensive, and all around just worse than EVs.

Let's not make it worse than it is. Hydrogen is proven technology and the infrastructure is there - not perhaps the infrastructure we'd like to see in terms of carbon emission nor as accessible as we'd want it to be for non commercial uses but it is there. It is indeed expensive with the current technology but hydrogen is in no sense "all around worse". I question whether it will ever beat batteries in non commercial vehicles but have little doubt that it will beat batteries in industrial applications.

 

[Mini2nut]

The competition has more to deliver than just a car or truck. Tesla has the competitive advantage when it comes to established service and delivery locations, mobile service techs and over the air updates.

 

[mrbulk]

I'll take more interest in Nikola if and when they actually build a truck and sell it for more than it cost them to build. And then do it a few thousand more times.

At this time it just seems like their CEO is merely hyping things to improve their stock share pricing. Their products are still vaporware.

 

[SpaceDoc]

My major problem with hydrogen is that the technology should've been before EV's, not during them. The concept of hydrogen vehicles aren't as good as the concept of electric vehicles in every aspect.

Totally agree. Hydrogen fuel for vehicles is a ridiculous concept. Storing and transporting volatile gas via an infrastructure that hasn't even been built is laughable. LOL! <-- Me laughing! :-D

Electricity is everywhere and tapping into it is incredibly simple.

 

[SpaceDoc]

Keep firmly in mind that hydrogen is just another form of battery (actually the anode of the battery - the fuel cell is the complete battery) in that it stores electrical energy derived from another source, A very big advantage of it, and the one that may save it from falling into obscurity, is that it stores energy much more densely than batteries based on other metals (yes, hydrogen is a metal), A few kg of hydrogen can store as much energy as hundreds of grams of lithium. So where hydrogen is likely to emerge is where weight reduction is very important such as in the trucking industry (where 1000 kg of battery is 1000 kg of cargo not carried) or aviation. Both those industries have the advantage that their support infrastructure is realized in an industrial setting where hydrogen generating equipment can be safely installed. All that is left is to get hydrogen from a cheap, carbon free source and that is, clearly, hydrolysis of water. That's inefficient now but some are touting technologies that will be over 90% efficient. Develop that technology and feed it with electricity from solar or wind and we are there. A few other things need to be worked out too such as onboard storage, fuel cell cost and complexity,...

If all the above come to pass, and I think they will but it may be 10 - 20 years, then the technology will spill over into the automotive market. I won't live to see it but hydrogen cars might one day happen.

10 - 20 years? How much better will current EVs be by then? Also that's a lot of steps you outline for hydrogen to be a viable fuel. And hydrogen has been around for a while, yet it hasn't taken hold, probably for good reasons. Electricity for EVs is already here and growing fast.

Also, thank you for your consistent, detailed and insightful comments! I enjoy reading them. You must be some sort of engineer.

 

[CyberCop]

I had not paid any attention to hydrogen for several years. I just looked at the current distribution of H2 filling stations. Unless you live in CA or on the East coast there are none. It will be very hard to sell a Badger in Nebraska. I know, big deal, but it will be just as hard to sell one in Texas or Illinois,

Agreed

 

[ajdelange]

10 - 20 years? How much better will current EVs be by then? Also that's a lot of steps you outline for hydrogen to be a viable fuel. And hydrogen has been around for a while, yet it hasn't taken hold, probably for good reasons. Electricity for EVs is already here and growing fast.

The first cars were electric. Then the Otto and Diesel engines emerged along with the technology to provide fuel for these in a system that made fossil fueled vehicles "better" than electric ones. Then Nikola Tesla came along with the induction motor followed by other geniuses who improved battery technology and, invented the high voltage switching transistor and the Park and Clark transforms and now again "electric" vehicles are "better" than gasoline and hydrogen. Technology will continue to advance and 10 - 20 years hence who knows which technology will be "best"?

"Best" is in quotes because the meaning of "best" changes. Carbon emission was not a factor when gasoline assumed ascendance, It certainly is now. Cost certainly is a factor and will continue to be and the amount of energy that can be practically carried on board is certainly one too - the one in which hydrogen has the clear advantage. But at the moment it lacks in safety and cost so it is not "best". If advancing technology changes that then hydrogen may become best at some point.

 

[Ehninger1212]

The first cars were electric. Then the Otto and Diesel engines emerged along with the technology to provide fuel for these in a system that made fossil fueled vehicles "better" than electric ones. Then Nikola Tesla came along with the induction motor followed by other geniuses who improved battery technology and, invented the high voltage switching transistor and the Park and Clark transforms and now again "electric" vehicles are "better" than gasoline and hydrogen. Technology will continue to advance and 10 - 20 years hence who knows which technology will be "best"?

"Best" is in quotes because the meaning of "best" changes. Carbon emission was not a factor when gasoline assumed ascendance, It certainly is now. Cost certainly is a factor and will continue to be and the amount of energy that can be practically carried on board is certainly one too - the one in which hydrogen has the clear advantage. But at the moment it lacks in safety and cost so it is not "best". If advancing technology changes that then hydrogen may become best at some point.

Its all clear to me now! So in this future where Hydrogen is a more environmentally friendly form of transport, us cybertruck guys will driving around "EV'ing" the hydrogen fill stations and "Rollin' Batteries" at them as we drive past! CANT WAIT!

 

[chlpat]

The problem with hydrogen is that it is, at the vehicle, expensive both in terms of $ and pollution. The main advantage of it, that one could build FCVs that went 300 mi on a fill, has now been lost since many BEV's can now go more than 300 mi on a charge. The other advantage, that 300 mi worth of fuel could be taken on in 10 minutes is also slipping away now that BEVs can take on 300 mi worth of charge in 20 - 30 min. Thus BEV's are clearly pulling ahead of the promise of "fool cells" and there will be little incentive to install the infrastructure necessary to support an FCV fleet.

The Badger PU is supposed to have a 600 mile range, a $60k price tag, and come in both EV and HFC (Hydrogen Fuel Cell) versions. Nikola's main source of revenue is going to be leases of Semi's - they will lease the semi's with full service and hydrogen fueling stations provided by Nikola. Right now their hydrogen is competitive with diesel fuel, and major European players (Corporations with fleets of delivery trucks) are on board. Not sure Tesla's EV semi can compete with the HFC semi of Nikola because of fueling time problem with the EV for a commercial operation where you need to minimize down time during fueling.

The Badger and semi's are in production for testing purposes and are supposed to be available sometime in 2021. Nikola plans a grand unveiling (like Elon's show for the Cybertruck) on June 29th. The Badger looks more like a conventional PU than the Cybertruck. They showed a picture of the beta in the interview on CNBC yesterday.

The CEO said yes, hydrogen production is less efficient than pure EV, but they can be competitive because they are buying electricity for the generation of hydrogen at commercial rates, and are working on improvements that will lower the cost of hydrogen production over time.

The above is all according to an interview the Nikola CEO gave on CNBC yesterday (June 15th 2020), if I got the details correctly from memory. The stock has taken off so to speak in price recently.

 

[ajdelange]

Right now their hydrogen is competitive with diesel fuel, and major European players (Corporations with fleets of delivery trucks) are on board.

That shouldn't be hard to do as over half the energy is diesel goes to Carnot losses.

Not sure Tesla's EV semi can compete with the HFC semi of Nikola because of fueling time problem with the EV for a commercial operation where you need to minimize down time during fueling.

Well if the Nikola is competitive with diesel the Semi is certainly going to clean up on fuel costs. It is, of course, up to the operators to decide whether the relative fueling times are a factor. You may not be aware of it but the Semi breaks its battery pack into sub packs and has separate charging ports for them so that in an appropriately configured charging station recharging times for the Semis should be comparable to that for the cars (average around 20 minutes per charge). In addition to that there is a very simple solution for the fleet operator and that's the one that has been in use for hundreds of years. Upon arriving at the way station simply replace the tractor with a fully charged one and you are on your way again in 5 (?) minutes.

The CEO said yes, hydrogen production is less efficient than pure EV, but they can be competitive because they are buying electricity for the generation of hydrogen at commercial rates, and are working on improvements that will lower the cost of hydrogen production over time.

They will never be able to compete with electric until such time as the cost ($ and carbon) of the wasted energy is trivial. This may happen some day. There are evidently laboratory technologies under investigation that raise the costs of hydrogen production from prohibitive to marginally acceptable. Perhaps 10 years from now?