Battery replacement and power upgrades over time?

[leducjjr]

Hi all,

I'm not yet convinced to sign up for one of these yet. I've a number of questions. This topic is on battery replacement and power upgrades over time.

The batteries will eventually fail over time. That's expected and is no different than replacing a starter battery in a fossil fuel vehicle. My questions are these. Would anyone here have input on this?

1. What is the current cost of new battery replacement, including labor and parts for existing Teslas? Will prices for CT batteries be similar?

2. Will the CT take newer, upgraded versions of batteries over time, or is the system designed for specific types of batteries? I don't want to be caught up in a purchase where I can only use certain "series" of batteries made between years 20xx and 20yy.

Recycling old CT batteries is a different topic altogether. My main focus here is how the CT will manage new power input over time and how much this will cost in the long run.

Kind regards
John

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[Devix]

I don't think that changing battery is to be considered an option.
For 2 reasons:
Firstly, If something goes wrong, Tesla batteries are split in smaller sections, so you can only change the damaged part.
Second, Tesla batteries are very reliable now. There's people with more than 400.000mi with the same battery.

You shouldn't replace the battery!
Anyway, Tesla guarantees battery for 8 years.

 

[leducjjr]

Thank you @Devix . My goal is to keep my vehicles for as long as possible.

My 1997 F150 just rolled over 406k miles this morning. I've had it since '09 when it had 212k miles on it.

I fully intend to keep a CT (if I get one) past the 400k/8 yr mark. Replacing the battery is going to happen

 

[Saskateam]

The new batteries are 1 million mile batteries as is the drive train. There will be maintenance for the vehicle but batteries should not be a concern for 400k.

 

[Cyber_Dav]

The new batteries are 1 million mile batteries as is the drive train. There will be maintenance for the vehicle but batteries should not be a concern for 400k.

I don't think so. That's what we want. That may be available in the future. It isn't going to come that way.

 

[Revelation]

To touch on the OP's questions.

The 2170 cells in the Model 3 are not compatible with the Model S & X battery packs that take the 18650 cells. I'm sure Tesla could make the necessary changes to make it work, it's just not a solution that is available at the moment.

There is no guarantee that newer battery tech will be available for older Teslas. I do not see Tesla purposefully keeping around the infrastructure to build battery cells based on current (old tech) once the newer tech is in place. The 18650 and 2170 are both produced at the moment. There's really no reason to make design changes to the S & X for the 18650 with even newer battery tech on the horizon.

Today it has been suggested that battery replacement, outside of warranty, for a Model 3 would cost roughly $15k. With the newer tech on the horizon, if the price of Wh/gr increases as much as rumors are leading on that could drop battery packs down to <=$5k for a Model 3. I still think we are a few years away from that low of pricing, it is coming though.

 

[Devix]

The new batteries are 1 million mile batteries as is the drive train. There will be maintenance for the vehicle but batteries should not be a concern for 400k.

It is exactly like that.
when the Semi was unveiled, Elon guaranteed 1 million miles

 

[rstrouts]

AND you get a million mile cold pressed hardened rocket ship steel body that won't even scratch up let alone dent!

 

[Saskateam]

To touch on the OP's questions.

The 2170 cells in the Model 3 are not compatible with the Model S & X battery packs that take the 18650 cells. I'm sure Tesla could make the necessary changes to make it work, it's just not a solution that is available at the moment.

There is no guarantee that newer battery tech will be available for older Teslas. I do not see Tesla purposefully keeping around the infrastructure to build battery cells based on current (old tech) once the newer tech is in place. The 18650 and 2170 are both produced at the moment. There's really no reason to make design changes to the S & X for the 18650 with even newer battery tech on the horizon.

Today it has been suggested that battery replacement, outside of warranty, for a Model 3 would cost roughly $15k. With the newer tech on the horizon, if the price of Wh/gr increases as much as rumors are leading on that could drop battery packs down to <=$5k for a Model 3. I still think we are a few years away from that low of pricing, it is coming though.

I have not heard anyone ask what it will cost them to change their ICE car to hydrogen and use that as an excuse not to buy an ICE car today or not buying because tomorrow we may see 80 g/mile future possible from an engine 10 years out. . Why is battery break throughs today any different.

 

[leducjjr]

When I decided to purchase a very used truck for an extremely modest price ($2k) I was experimenting with the cost of parts replacement vs buying new under warranty. So far that experiment has paid off. I took on the risk because I knew parts were plentiful and not extremely expensive.

For many parts, my mechanics had to go OEM and for others we used more modern types/components. The motor replacement was not OEM but a rebuild and improvement on the original. That would be similar to replacing an outdated battery in a CT with a newer type, 12 years down the road.

I had no intent of desire to replace my gas engine with a hydrogen engine (as an example). What was important to me then and important to me in the future is long-term sustainability and reusability. My grandkids shouldn't have to deal with the remains of the toys I buy today.

 

[Saskateam]

When I bought my 1995 Jeep YJ I know I could fix everything on it. If I wanted I can convert it to electric and know every part and function. However when I bought the last 6 newer than 2006 vehicles I also knew that I would not be able to repair, replace or upgrade easily because of the vehicle it was. I have miled out or had the vehicles damaged so much they were an insurance write off, not at fault once, because of of other drivers. Have you ever tried to replace the alternator on a 2006 Chevy car? You have to remove the passenger side tire and wheel well. Have you ever tried to replace the head gasket on a 2013 Ford F-150? You need to remove the cab of the truck. Have you ever tried to replace the radiator on a 2016 F150? What makes you think you can repair a new ICE vehicle easily?

 

[Saskateam]

I am a person who spends over $400,000 cad on repairs for ICE vehicles a year for a fleet of vehicles for work. There is not much in the modern ICE vehicles that an individual can repair anymore on modern vehicles.

 

[leducjjr]

Agreed on not being able to self-repair modern vehicles. That's not something I'm aiming to do. I don't do the repair & replacement of parts on my F150 today.

My question and concern is specific to battery replacement and the CT's compatibility with upgraded power sources.

When the original motor for my F150 had a major fault, I chose to have it replaced with a rebuilt one that was stronger and in many areas, improved from the one built in 1997. That cost a few grand. The new motor didn't require any changes to the rest of the truck (transmission, starter battery, etc). I knew the mechs would reuse parts of my old engine for other things.

I'd like to know if we have similar experiences with electronic vehicles. What's the cost and can the vehicle use newer, more efficient power sources as time progresses?

 

[Saskateam]

We do not have the answer to your question yet. Some Tesla’s were built to have the batteries swapped easily. Instead of waiting for a charge you would pull into a battery swap place and the battery would be replaced with a full one. This did not happen often and Tesla stopped the practice. Batteries can be changed for warranty issues and other reasons. The aftermarket has not had to deal with Tesla battery replacement yet, but has taken batteries out of wrecked Tesla’s for other uses. I have heard you can replace the Nissan Leaf older battery with a more capacity new battery at the right garages. I would think this would be an option for Tesla’s.
You don’t just drop in a new (different) engine without some form of modification and that may be the case for batteries. I think the CT body should be designed all the same for the different ranges, so you could buy the Single Motor version and then buy a wrecked Tri Motor and put the batteries and engines in. Not sure what the cost would be for this.
You may want to watch some YouTube videos for the people that modify and repair Tesla’s to see if they change batteries out. The CT is going to change things for sure. An early Roadster or MS w last well and still do alright for battery capacity however it is smaller capacity and older technology than a new MS. Tesla does not do refreshes by year. If they see something they can improve they do it on the next vehicle on the production line, so the original MS is very different from the new MS and it is hard to track all the changes to it. The CT is going to have a large battery, however will you be able to take a 300kwh battery and put it in if the space is the same, in theory yes in practice it may mean pulling everywhere pack and replacing with a higher capacity pack or having to change every individual cell or maybe buy an aftermarket battery that fits. It is not a market that has had to exist yet but it may in the future.

 

[Cyber_Dav]

I'd like to know if we have similar experiences with electronic vehicles. What's the cost and can the vehicle use newer, more efficient power sources as time progresses?

The difficulty is in all the computers, inverters and control electronics.

An ICE engine swap is easy, but what about smog controls? Does the OBDll still report accurately? Do the O2 sensors work? Will the transmission be strong enough to handle the improved engine? Does the differential ratio need to be changed?

In a similar vein, new battery technology may imply different voltages (many ICE trucks are now 24v instead of 12). New batteries will have different charge/discharge rates.

EVs are still in their infancy. Cars made today will be difficult to upgrade to gen 2, and I doubt will be able to retrofit to gen 3. By that I mean not economically viable, not that it can't be done.

At this point in their evolution, I don't think any manufacturer is making their vehicles future-proof (ICE or EV). There is simply no payback, and their guess of the future could be wrong anyway.

I'm pretty sure when the gigawatt suitcase size battery pack comes along, it will not be a simple retrofit.