Why Startups (and Tesla) Will Struggle with Electric Pick Ups

[Crissa]

Thats true. So in your opinion, why don't they sell?

...Because GM hasn't really tried.

-Crissa

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[Quicksilver]

" There is a problem though... ev have so very little maintenance and repair, it's not a great business to be in. Dealers don't want to sell electric cars because they don't get the service money.... "

Dealers also make a butt load of money doing warranty work. Dodge has been begging us to bring in the 3500 to do some mandated warranty work on it. No cost to us and they charge Dodge shop labor rates to do the work.

Even though the CT won't need oil changes or coolant system repair/replacement/servicing there will be some scheduled maint issues that will have to be addressed. There is also the possibility that a motor or driveline component could fail and need to be replaced or repaired.

Since Tesla does not have traditional dealerships with huge service bays and a bunch of techs working under one roof there needs to be someone to fill the gap and provide local service.

I'm pretty sure Tesla has someone brainstorming these issues and as they increase production a solution will found.

The last thing I want to do is to drive my CT to Atlanta for routine service or if there is a major problem having it transported 180 miles one way. Paying a premium to have a mobile Tesla tech to come to me does not give me a warm fuzzy since I'm on a fixed income.

That is where I see the niche market. An established independent service center could have trained techs that can work on EV's as needed. Tesla could pay them for warranty work and provide parts without the service center having to depend on NAPA or the other usual suspects for those parts.

The independents would also have to decide which EV's they want to service once the number of manufacturers increases since each EV will be different. How much training would they want to pay to have their techs qualified to work on a wide range of EV's?

A lot of food for thought here.

 

[Crissa]

I'm pretty sure Tesla has someone brainstorming these issues and as they increase production a solution will found.

https://www.tesla.com/support/mobile-service

-Crissa

 

[Quicksilver]

Interesting.......I did note that there are no service rates posted.
Since the techs are mobile I would assume that there would be a mileage fee in addition to the hourly service rates.
Will the service techs have manuals that tell what a specific repair will cost like the traditional dealerships? The "book rate" at Nissan says it takes an hour to change the oil in my van........my guess is that a good tech can do it in half that time and someone is pocketing the difference.
I can also see issues if there are not enough techs to cover a specific area in a timely manner.
Waiting four or five days for a service tech to perform what should be a routine service or simple repair would get old quick.

 

[Akgolf]

I don’t have a Tesla, but have seen mostly positive experiences posted for mobile service.

I live on the outskirts of Oklahoma City and see Tesla mobile vans all the time.

 

[Crissa]

Interesting.......I did note that there are no service rates posted.
I can also see issues if there are not enough techs to cover a specific area in a timely manner.
Waiting four or five days for a service tech to perform what should be a routine service or simple repair would get old quick.

Yes, the rates vary by where you are. All this is handled in the app, not in paper. There's no book or menu we get to see. Their fees so far have been competitive; they aren't looking to make this a profit center.

And you schedule this in advance. So yes, you are waiting 'days' but then the tech rolls up with the right parts and just does it wherever you have space. Those of us without parking are prolly going to be left out, but something will be figured out.

-Crissa

 

[jerhenderson]

What are these guys even talking about? They realize this is on the internet forever so that we can quote them being this wrong and bold about their fud in 20 years, right?

Is this the same Ford and GM that were showing off electric sedans in the 90s and have nothing to show for it? The same Ford that benched all their EV projects until Tesla showed up? The same Crysler that discarded their turbine engine in the 60s because it "polluted too much", even though it could be run on tequila?

I just want to be sure, because I'm only 32 and I've been hearing from legacy automakers about how EVs are the future since I was cognisant, but I've yet to see any of them actually create an electric car worth a damn. Suddenly someone comes along and shows it's viable and the entire defense force shows up to phone it in.

I'm a truck guy, I've had several, I drive one every day to job sites and use it for moving machines and tools where I need them and I can't wait for my cybertruck. The people that buy trucks for status should be a moot point, they always follow downstream of the economic sector that uses them most.

Dollar for dollar an EV truck makes nothing but sense for businesses, and once they become normalized I can guarantee that you're going to see this aftermarket support and every ugly clip in grill you can imagine. Truck culture is a thing, but it's something that has changed and evolved with the times, not some cornerstone of Americana that never changes.

You're right... legacy auto talked about EV but did exactly nothing until they were forced to.

 

[azjohn]

Your grandma is making a damn good coffee and it is free. The supermodel that has not gotten her break in Hollywood yet is selling an overpriced coffee in Starbucks around the corner. Which one are you going to go for?

If I could teach Grandma to make a Breve Latte she would have all of my business!

 

[Bond007]

I have a 2020 vehicle with a large screen. It still has a physical volume knob, climate control buttons, windshield wiper buttons, sunroof buttons, and so on. Those types of functions are duplicated in the large touchscreen, but I haven't seen any evidence that they are being chased out any time soon by anyone other than tesla.

It may not be a big deal for some people, but it matters to most of us. This is a Tesla forum, so there will be some sampling bias. Most people want buttons for the common stuff.

I agree that the charging network is a Tesla advantage. I'm not sure how long that will last though... At least several more years for sure.

The legacy automakers are focusing on buying or partnering with the large charging networks in order to provide some sort of semi homegrown charging networks. I think it will take years for those to grow enough to compare to the Tesla charging network, and there are no guarantees it will happen. I think the charging networks will grow EV after EV sales continue to grow, so there will likely be a shortage of chargers for a while if cars like the Mach E sell faster than expected.

You are making a lot of assumptions that things will not change for the majority.
Most will not have a problem with switching over to touchscreens if it saves them money and increases functionality. You don't use a flip phone, do you?
You like sunroofs and buttons to operate them. How about not having one but using a fixed glass roof?

You seem to love dealerships, but will it be the same if the online equivalent is 15-20% cheaper? The truth is, that is how much you are paying at the minimum for that nice clean modern looking dealership with helpful employees. When push comes to shove, they will fight tooth and nail for perpetuating the antiquated protectionist laws that shield them and prevent GM/ Ford from selling online.

You say supercharger advantage for Tesla is temporary till others catch up. Will the third party charging services operate for free / charity? Tesla has already declared that it is not intending to make profit with the supercharger network. That’s the advantage of being an in-house network. The only alternative is for Ford / GM to develop their own charging network and then operate as “not for profit” (very unlikely).

Do you trust that Ford / GM are as committed to EVs as other EV only brands? I’m tempted to say that the moment they realize that EV transition could be blocked somehow they would jump on it (just like GM sued California recently).

Will they develop their own software and chips to keep updated, highly doubt. They will depend on third party to do that. The only problem is that it doesn’t work with continual improvements. They’d want one set of improvements to be implemented and then wait for the next five year cycle as they have been doing all along before choosing an all new version.I don’t think they are software experts. Is GM / Ford vertically integrated or they depend on suppliers?

Why all of these matter? It matters because each of these minor things add up in cost.
If the legacy automakers attempt to compete with Tesla on current price somehow, it still wouldn’t work because Tesla can simply lower its prices even more and still stay profitable which the others can’t.
Eventually the price is what will make or break the market leader. Brand loyalty will go only so long. A significant cause of GM / Ford becoming leaders in pick up trucks is due to lack of competition by protective legislation (??? chicken tax).
Why am I even stating these..? I don’t even own a Tesla or an EV, but can see the writing on the wall for these fossil fuel dinosaurs.

 

[EMguy]

You are making a lot of assumptions that things will not change for the majority.
Most will not have a problem with switching over to touchscreens if it saves them money and increases functionality. You don't use a flip phone, do you?
You like sunroofs and buttons to operate them. How about not having one but using a fixed glass roof?

You seem to love dealerships, but will it be the same if the online equivalent is 15-20% cheaper? The truth is, that is how much you are paying at the minimum for that nice clean modern looking dealership with helpful employees. When push comes to shove, they will fight tooth and nail for perpetuating the antiquated protectionist laws that shield them and prevent GM/ Ford from selling online.

You say supercharger advantage for Tesla is temporary till others catch up. Will the third party charging services operate for free / charity? Tesla has already declared that it is not intending to make profit with the supercharger network. That’s the advantage of being an in-house network. The only alternative is for Ford / GM to develop their own charging network and then operate as “not for profit” (very unlikely).

Do you trust that Ford / GM are as committed to EVs as other EV only brands? I’m tempted to say that the moment they realize that EV transition could be blocked somehow they would jump on it (just like GM sued California recently).

Will they develop their own software and chips to keep updated, highly doubt. They will depend on third party to do that. The only problem is that it doesn’t work with continual improvements. They’d want one set of improvements to be implemented and then wait for the next five year cycle as they have been doing all along before choosing an all new version.I don’t think they are software experts. Is GM / Ford vertically integrated or they depend on suppliers?

Why all of these matter? It matters because each of these minor things add up in cost.
If the legacy automakers attempt to compete with Tesla on current price somehow, it still wouldn’t work because Tesla can simply lower its prices even more and still stay profitable which the others can’t.
Eventually the price is what will make or break the market leader. Brand loyalty will go only so long. A significant cause of GM / Ford becoming leaders in pick up trucks is due to lack of competition by protective legislation (??? chicken tax).
Why am I even stating these..? I don’t even own a Tesla or an EV, but can see the writing on the wall for these fossil fuel dinosaurs.

You accused me of making assumptions but followed with a post filled with assumptions.

Hmm... My assumption is simple and concise. Most people will not suddenly change their preferences and continue to like well established companies with good quality control and a strong service network, neither of which Tesla currently provides according to the vast majority of online reviews. I'm not talking about individuals posting anecdotal stories either. I'm talking about auto journalism sources citing data showing Teslas are having a lot of quality control issues and delays in getting service.

Your response is loaded with numerous assumptions that directly contradict most people's preferences (outside of Tesla forums). Obviously people on this forum have a selection bias because they all like Tesla or would not be here.

You assume:glass roofs are prefered to roofs that open, people will give up physical buttons, people are willing to wait months for parts by ordering online through tesla or mobile service if it means saving 15%, other companies will not catch up to Tesla's supercharging network, GM and Ford won't develop software and chips and keep them updated, Ford and GM are leaders in truck sales due to protectionist laws.

By the way, have you watched the reviews of the Mach E yet? North American SUV of the Year Award. MotorWeek’s 2021 “Best of the Year.”

The Ford Pass charging network has 13,500 locations. That seems pretty competitive. How may Supercharger locations are there in the US? Also, I'm pretty sure I see Tesla's using non supercharger stations constantly. It's not like other companies haven't produced a viable network fo chargers. They already exist. Tesla still has the lead with DC fast chargers, but even that lead is shrinking rapidly.

 

[Akgolf]

The Bolt also won car of the year.

Hopefully other charging networks can catch or pass Tesla, but right now I don’t have the confidence to actually attempt a cross country trip using them.

 

[Crissa]

You accused me of making assumptions but followed with a post filled with assumptions.

So is yours.

How can buyers have a 'preference' when those weren't even options for them to choose between?

Crossovers weren't a thing when I bought my first car, so you might assume I don't like them. Or roofs that open. Or glass roofs. Or touch screens. Etc.

Hopefully other charging networks can catch or pass Tesla, but right now I don’t have the confidence to actually attempt a cross country trip using them.

Well, unlike Tesla's, the remainder networks are all the same standard. So they function as a single network. There are 2400 CCS stations instead of Tesla's under a thousand.

-Crissa

PS, I assume the mach-e got it's position by Ford buying it. It doesn't really have anything it does better than others.

 

[Bond007]

You accused me of making assumptions but followed with a post filled with assumptions.

Hmm... My assumption is simple and concise. Most people will not suddenly change their preferences and continue to like well established companies with good quality control and a strong service network, neither of which Tesla currently provides according to the vast majority of online reviews. I'm not talking about individuals posting anecdotal stories either. I'm talking about auto journalism sources citing data showing Teslas are having a lot of quality control issues and delays in getting service.

Your response is loaded with numerous assumptions that directly contradict most people's preferences (outside of Tesla forums). Obviously people on this forum have a selection bias because they all like Tesla or would not be here.

You assume:glass roofs are prefered to roofs that open, people will give up physical buttons, people are willing to wait months for parts by ordering online through tesla or mobile service if it means saving 15%, other companies will not catch up to Tesla's supercharging network, GM and Ford won't develop software and chips and keep them updated, Ford and GM are leaders in truck sales due to protectionist laws.

By the way, have you watched the reviews of the Mach E yet? North American SUV of the Year Award. MotorWeek’s 2021 “Best of the Year.”

The Ford Pass charging network has 13,500 locations. That seems pretty competitive. How may Supercharger locations are there in the US? Also, I'm pretty sure I see Tesla's using non supercharger stations constantly. It's not like other companies haven't produced a viable network fo chargers. They already exist. Tesla still has the lead with DC fast chargers, but even that lead is shrinking rapidly.

All I'm saying is, these changes are progressive and most will not have a problem switching over. Such as switching over from flip phones with buttons to touchscreen smart phones, old school cameras to digital cameras, retail shopping in malls to amazon, etc simply because they offer a magnitude better functionality an ease (while decreasing the cost associated with many of them -esp camera films). I was simply pointing out, even though now I realize that my post sounded more accusation toned, but that was not my intention.

Can you honestly say that these motoring magazines are not sponsored at all by legacy autos....? Of course they will have to give some sort of an award to them to justify their existence. One thing we can be confident is that Tesla wouldn't pay a dime to them, as mentioned by Elon several times.

 

[SpaceDoc]

Motley Fool is a scam that pretends it has insider information and leads that into paying subscriptions.

Notice this article doesn't say the change in sales for GM this year; only Ford. So the numbers are meaningless and incomparable. They say nothing, and pretends it means something.

More, they act as though there is some sort of inevitability to numbers that already exist. But there is not. If one product is cheaper, it'll sell more. If one is better, it might sell more. If it's advertised a little better, it might sell more... But that only changes it a little.

Suggesting that entirely new platforms with backorders equal to any one model of the established players' shows an inherent weakness to the established brands. If their win was inevitable, you wouldn't see that.


But they won't. Nor will their EV production be a tenth of Tesla's. That's the problem.

-Crissa

Ha! True. Motley Fool was decent when it started out. They always had something interesting to add, but past few years (maybe more?) their articles are fluff that try to sell you on some bs or another.

I’m sort of partial to Ford, having owned a number of them, but I dont see them making anything comparable to the CyberTruck for another 5 years after the CT is released, for many reasons. But mostly because they will want to milk every last dollar out of their ICE tech until they are forced to get serious about EVs by the consumer or the government.

Ford and the other legacy auto makers primary goal is to make money. They don’t have a mission like Tesla, which is also part of Tesla’s appeal. In my mind this is reminiscent of Apple and Steve Jobs, whose goal was not necessarily to make money, but to change the world and give people the things they didn't even know they needed.

 

[Nipomo]

There is a problem though... ev have so very little maintenance and repair, it's not a great business to be in. Dealers don't want to sell electric cars because they don't get the service money....

Tesla, has done well to avoid dealerships. They won’t support electric vehicles. EV owners don’t need or want to deal with a dealership.