Tesla's 700 Mile Battery Is Coming Sooner Than You Think

[blackscraper]

An EV can also draw on wasted heat and the new Octovalve system in the Y does exactly that. Now the difference between a BEV and an ICE car is that in the ICE car the wasted heat is 500% of the traction load whereas in a BEV it may be 5 - 10%. Going down the highway at 70 mpH an X may be pulling 13 kW meaning 0.65 to 1.3 kW is being wasted. That is plenty to heat the cabin and warm the battery until it starts to get more than a little cold. When it gets more than a little cold the heat pump in the Y and presumably the CT will cut in returning 300 W of heat for each 100 W of battery invested.

I'm not saying that there aren't circumstances where the cold is going to be an appreciable factor but especially with the new Y "plumbing" this situation is going to improve in that regard. As it is the fleet sees an average of 10% efficiency loss in winter.

you probably would like the battery pack stay warm while driving. when it is very cold (like a typical Canadian winter day), this 0.6kw-1.3kw might not be enough to keep both cabin and pack warm. Also this heat pump however efficient during "good weather", is not that so during such cold when heat is most needed. Beginning of 2020, we southern Ontarians experienced a streak of cold days when night temperatures dropped to -25C(real temperature not "feels like") and daytime high hovering around -10C. If heating does not guarantee a "far worse range" than EPA, then what about crosswind/headwind? To make matters worse, northwest wind blew at 25km/h and gusting to 45km/h at the same time. I can see from your profile you also live in Quebec. I think winters there are harsher there than Southern Ontario.

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[Crissa]

Sorry, @blackscraper, I'll take numbers from actual drivers over your back of napkin estimates.

The thermal mass and management of a Tesla means it doesn't pay the same price for cold weather that a Leaf does, let alone what my Zero which has neither a cabin nor temperature management to deal with the cold.

So a Tesla is coming the closest to an ICE in seasonal range variation. And those ICE vehicles only have so much excess therms to go around. In -30 ICE vehicles need to be plugged in, lest they ice over.

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

My ICE Vehicles are fine in -40C weather. If I don't turn one on for a couple of weeks, I might have to jump the battery but that's normal for a Canadian winter.

I'm not saying anything against Tesla, I'm sure the Cybertruck will be able to handle the cold up here when I get mine, but until then, my vehicles will do just fine.

 

[Crissa]

My ICE Vehicles are fine in -40C weather. If I don't turn one on for a couple of weeks, I might have to jump the battery but that's normal for a Canadian winter.

...And a lithium battery doesn't lose its charge or is damaged by the cold, as long as it's warmed up

And not warming your engine block before starting it, you're risking permanently damaging it,
I may not be Canadian, but I know how to read.

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

As a Canadian and a former mechanics of both vehicles and aircrafts, I can say that the damage is extemely minimal. The Viscosity of oil does need to be taken into consideration but as long as you don't start your vehicle and immediately start reving the engine, you probably won't ever see any consequences of starting a cold car without a block heater. If this was damaging cars regularly, we would have block heaters, but I can assure you that the average Canadian does not have one.

Another way to look at this is if you put in oil in your car on an average day around 15-20C, it's pretty thick; heat that oil up to the temperature of an engine around 100C and it will be thinner. So if we warm up our engines on a -40C day or just take it slow as we usually do on icy roads, we will be just fine. I guess if someone lives next to a highway on ramp, starts their car everyday and immediately guns it onto the highway, they will probably experience problems eventually.

 

[Crissa]

Pretty much every source I can find says it reduces the lifetime of a vehicle to do that.

So I'm going to trust CAA Manitoba over a random moose ^-^

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

Fair enough. I will trust how that never came up in my years of autoshop class, my apprenticeship, and jobs as anything significant. As well as no common use of block heaters anywhere that I have seen other than the deep Canadian North where we used them on big equipment because of the battery always dying overnight.

 

[ajdelange]

you probably would like the battery pack stay warm while driving. when it is very cold (like a typical Canadian winter day), this 0.6kw-1.3kw might not be enough to keep both cabin and pack warm. Also this heat pump however efficient during "good weather", is not that so during such cold when heat is most needed.

Both true if it gets cold enough and that's why I was very careful to make mention of those factors in my earlier posts.

..then what about crosswind/headwind?

What about tailwinds? Crosswinds don't have that much of an effect. When discussing this I often point out that one of the factors with winter is that lousy weather is more prevalent. Stuff on the road surface, even water, can add quite a bit to consumption.

... live in Quebec.

Not in the winter! I winter in Virginia where it gets cold but seldom goes much below freezing. Lots and lots of Tesla drivers live south of the border (and stay there since Canada won't let us in any more)

As a Canadian and a former mechanics of both vehicles and aircrafts, I can say that the damage is extemely minimal. The Viscosity of oil does need to be taken into consideration

I remember my wife's 6 V Porsche in winter in upstate New York. By draining the oil (into her cookware) and taking it inside and then heating it on the stove ion the morning before pouring it back into the engine and putting a second 6 V battery in series with the car's battery I could get it started.

As well as no common use of block heaters anywhere that I have seen other than the deep Canadian

Interesting comment. One of the things that I remember most about my first visits to Quebec was thinking it strange that all the cars had 120V wiring under the hood. I haven't thought about that in years. I guess if asked I would have thought the dipstick heater de riguer for any car parked outside or in an unheated garage. Not so today? Must be global warming.

 

[Gibbed187]

Pretty much every source I can find says it reduces the lifetime of a vehicle to do that.

So I'm going to trust CAA Manitoba over a random moose ^-^

-Crissa

Hi Crissa,

Can you please post the link to the article that you read from the CAA Manitoba? Please keep in mind if this article is over 10yrs old the research will be null and void. Advancements in technology deem any research papers older than 2yrs (depending on the tech or bio research being recorded) as obsolete. For automotive applications a 10yr window is fair but most research older than 3yrs is obsolete.

Can you help with with your statement about people that live in apartments or condo's shouldn't own a Tesla? I may've misread that so please correct me if I did.

I think we worry to much about little things. If people want a 700+ mile battery for ease of mind and this can be done safely for both the workers and the environmental impact (both pre and post production) then I don't see a problem with it. I for one need the range do to the traveling I do. I drive about 1500 miles a month average. I had to purchase the tri motor for the range. One trip a week I make is 350 miles round trip. You can argue that the 500 mile battery would suffice but after you add in the parasitic drag, climate control, audio services, 5hrs of 75mph, and heaven for bid sitting in traffic if there is a wreck for 20-30 minutes not moving, then the battery degradation that is only theoretical at best with the Cyber Truck (because no one knows which battery technology will be used until the start producing the vehicle) the 700 mile range becomes a major selling point quickly. Isn't the whole point of the EV to keep pollutants down and make our environment cleaner?

Yes, you are right, I am one person that needs this. Now lets look at all the farmers in the Midwest. The majority of these people live 45-100 miles from civilization. So you say, "Alright, that's 200 miles round trip. The 500 mile range will more than suffice." Now lets add pulling live stock trailers, hay bails, farm equipment, etc. the range drastically diminishes. The 700+ mile battery brings all this back to life. If the farmers get on board with EV's then that is a huge mile stone. Obviously the construction workers are a huge win as well. At the end of the day the whole goal is to produce an environmentally friendly method of transportation for all feats of professions and personal life styles.

 

[ajdelange]

and heaven for bid sitting in traffic if there is a wreck for 20-30 minutes not moving,

That's one thing you don't have to worry about. When sitting still the car uses very little energy. Even if you have the heat or A/C cranked up you would lose perhaps half a kWh in 20 -30 min which in the CT is equivalent to only a mile or 2 of range.

 

[Gibbed187]

That's one thing you don't have to worry about. When sitting still the car uses very little energy. Even if you have the heat or A/C cranked up you would lose perhaps half a kWh in 20 -30 min which in the CT is equivalent to only a mile or 2 of range.

The "Heaven for bid" statement is for the people and the families involved in the crash. Just want everyone to understand that.

That's a great point you make. But I think you're missing the big picture. Standard automotive tolerances are set to +/-5%. Now that's for each part of the circuit. So for example the battery charge meter, the algorithm for destination range left, the sensors that provide feed back for the algorithm to work efficiently and so on. So you add all the negative tolerances up and you can be 50 miles off (yes, on the positive side of that you can gain 50 miles, but are you willing to take the chance that the stars are aligned for you? I'm not.). So 1 to 2 miles doesn't sound like a big deal, but when you're put in that "pucker factor" situation, it is a big deal. You have to remember, there is a reason why AAA and all the other major insurance providers offer free roadside assistance(which includes up to 5gal of fuel delivery). There are a large amount of people that run out of fuel on a daily basis.

This is just another aspect that to me shows the 700+ mile range is something that needs to happen. It adds that layer of security to those on the proverbial fence.

 

[ajdelange]

You don't really get the "big picture" until you drive the cars. Yes, there are some that don't get it even then but most of us come to understand what the various indicators are telling us. The "fuel gauge" in a Tesla is not a float moving the wiper on a potentiometer connected to a cheap d'Arsenval meter. It uses precision sensors to measure battery current and voltage and very sophisticated algorithms to deduce the SoC of the battery and energy use over time. The odometer has a precision of 0.01 mile and if you change the radius of the wheels you are using there is a provision to indicate that to the computer. It has a GPS (and probably GLONASS) receiver. etc. The driver is given remaining range and SoC at destination estimates that reflect how he is driving and terrain and a good driver learns to do his planning so that there is a healthy margin in the tank when he gets home. Learn to use the information the car gives you and you will not wind up puckered.

 

[Gibbed187]

You don't really get the "big picture" until you drive the cars. Yes, there are some that don't get it even then but most of us come to understand what the various indicators are telling us. The "fuel gauge" in a Tesla is not a float moving the wiper on a potentiometer connected to a cheap d'Arsenval meter. It uses precision sensors to measure battery current and voltage and very sophisticated algorithms to deduce the SoC of the battery and energy use over time. The odometer has a precision of 0.01 mile and if you change the radius of the wheels you are using there is a provision to indicate that to the computer. It has a GPS (and probably GLONASS) receiver. etc. The driver is given remaining range and SoC at destination estimates that reflect how he is driving and terrain and a good driver learns to do his planning so that there is a healthy margin in the tank when he gets home. Learn to use the information the car gives you and you will not wind up puckered.

My apologize if I offended you. Keep in mind I'm advocating for the 700+ mileage here. I do get the big picture, and have driven a Tesla. I do have a Tri Motor reserved. You are correct, there is no moving components in the "fuel" sensors. But the same "precision sensors" you mention above are all built with +/- tolerances on recording or data input. So how can an algorithm be precise if the very inputs it is using are built with flaws. Now that being said, it is physically impossible to build sensors with 0 tolerance. You will always have a minimum of 1%. the odometer has to be that accurate. It's mandated by D.O.T. The vehicle could not be road worthy if it wasn't. The GPS is not as accurate as you think. It's Federally mandates that the GPS has to be off. It was 300' but it might've been changed to 200' now. Sure 200-300' isn't that far, unless you have to go uphill to a charger. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there an issue with the Model S shutting off with 100 mile range left on the DTE (Distance to Empty)? So by that issue alone at 101 miles DTE (which in my book 100 miles is a healthy margin to empty), you would be in the "Pucker Zone".

My original post was not to upset or offend anyone. I was listing real life situations and why the 700+ range is a good thing.

 

[ajdelange]

My apologize if I offended you.

No - not at all!

I do get the big picture, and have driven a Tesla. I do have a Tri Motor reserved.

It isn't enough to have driven one on a test drive. It takes some time to "learn" you car.

So how can an algorithm be precise if the very inputs it is using are built with flaws.

That's what the algorithms are for! There is only one "flaw" that can't be dealt with and that is instability. If it is stable for some workable period of time (a year for a voltmeter; an hour for a pH meter) systematic error can be calibrated out and filtering (which may be something hairy like Kalman filtering in the case of GPS or just simple averaging in the case of a voltmeter) takes care of the random error (and is necessary for removal of bias error too).

Now that being said, it is physically impossible to build sensors with 0 tolerance.

Resistors and capacitors have tolerances. Sensors accuracy specs.

You will always have a minimum of 1%.

Where did you get that idea? I wouldn't accept performance that poor in most of the instruments I own.

The GPS is not as accurate as you think. It's Federally mandates that the GPS has to be off. It was 300' but it might've been changed to 200' now.

You're not quite up to date. Bill Clinton certainly didn't do much good for the country but there was one exception. By executive order he killed SA (Selective Availability) in May 2000.

The image below shows where the car thinks it is at the moment (arrow) and where my cellphone thinks it is (I was sitting in the car). The symbols represent the actual position of the car an me to within probably better than a meter. I think typical 2drms for a modern GPS/GLONASS receiver under reasonable DOP is probably 5 - 10 m

Sure 200-300' isn't that far, unless you have to go uphill to a charger.

No idea what you mean by this.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there an issue with the Model S shutting off with 100 mile range left on the DTE (Distance to Empty)? So by that issue alone at 101 miles DTE (which in my book 100 miles is a healthy margin to empty), you would be in the "Pucker Zone".

I can't say. I have seen reports of people claiming to be tooling along with comfortable margins displayed and then suddenly they are on empty. I cannot say whether this actually ever happened or not. When I pressed a couple of them for details none were ever forthcoming. But hardware can fail.

As I said in a previous post the vehicle provides the driver with plenty of information to prevent him from getting into a low fuel pickle. Learn to use it, understand what the displays are telling you, update your understanding of sensor accuracy and stop worrying.

I was listing real life situations and why the 700+ range is a good thing.

700 miles would be a good thing but don't expect it for a few years.

 

[Gibbed187]

No - not at all!

It isn't enough to have driven one on a test drive. It takes some time to "learn" you car.

That's what the algorithms are for! There is only one "flaw" that can't be dealt with and that is instability. If it is stable for some workable period of time (a year for a voltmeter; an hour for a pH meter) systematic error can be calibrated out and filtering (which may be something hairy like Kalman filtering in the case of GPS or just simple averaging in the case of a voltmeter) takes care of the random error (and is necessary for removal of bias error too).

Resistors and capacitors have tolerances. Sensors accuracy specs.

Where did you get that idea? I wouldn't accept performance that poor in most of the instruments I own.


You're not quite up to date. Bill Clinton certainly didn't do much good for the country but there was one exception. By executive order he killed SA (Selective Availability) in May 2000.

The image below shows where the car thinks it is at the moment (arrow) and where my cellphone thinks it is (I was sitting in the car). The symbols represent the actual position of the car an me to within probably better than a meter. I think typical 2drms for a modern GPS/GLONASS receiver under reasonable DOP is probably 5 - 10 m

No idea what you mean by this.


I can't say. I have seen reports of people claiming to be tooling along with comfortable margins displayed and then suddenly they are on empty. I cannot say whether this actually ever happened or not. When I pressed a couple of them for details none were ever forthcoming. But hardware can fail.

As I said in a previous post the vehicle provides the driver with plenty of information to prevent him from getting into a low fuel pickle. Learn to use it, understand what the displays are telling you, update your understanding of sensor accuracy and stop worrying.


700 miles would be a good thing but don't expect it for a few years.

First off, I want to say well done Sir! You have the Shante that I one day hope to be able to build. And coffee in the morning over looking that lake... That has to be one of the most beautiful tranquil sunrises a person can ask for, let alone on a daily basis.

The rest of it we will continue on Wednesday (I'm on the road Tuesday). I already started drinking for the day. We'll get into your instruments and their tolerances then.

I'm not worried at all. That's why I ordered one.

I like looking at both sides of the spectrum and try to make arguments for the apposing side. Then see the feed back that I get from the debates. It helps me in seeing where I need to do more research and see the angles I didn't see. Self evolving I guess? Would that be the correct description?