Metal roof rather than glass on the Cybertruck

[FutureBoy]

One question. How many of the people seem offended by folks who would like a metal roof for whatever reason use trucks for work, SAR, or public safety? I can understand Tesla deciding not to serve that market. It is Tesla's privilege and they can probably live without the sales. I don't get why folks here don't accept that some customers know what they need and sadly, what we need may turn out not to be a Tesla. Personally, I really want to see one and determine if there are work arounds, but I suspect there won't be. That won't keep it from being the perfect truck for the rest of you.

Here's the thing from my side. I'm not

offended by folks who would like a metal roof for whatever reason

In fact, I hope that anyone who wants such a thing finds a way to get at least an alternative of what they want that works as well (or maybe even better). I have my own things that I want the CT to have/do that are certainly at odds with some other folks here. I've expressed my opinion on those and heard back from others as to the pros and cons of what I want. It's been very educational and I enjoy the discussion. Recently though I did get offended when a certain post was the last straw for me as it suggested that the CT was maybe just not EVER going to be for me. I don't have any grudge against the person who posted that. They were just at the end of a long line of people who didn't accept that what I want may not match what they want. It's OK for us all to have differing needs/wants in regards to our CTs. But here is the thing. The discussion needs to be a give and take.

Back to your point though. While I do not find offense with someone wanting a metal roof, I do get exasperated at individuals who continue to push their stated point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I get it. There are reasons (stated multiple times now) why a metal roof would have certain advantages. But just pushing the point repeatedly to people who have no power or influence over such an outcome gets us all nowhere. And so my approach has been to click the ignore button on a certain individual for now. I do come back periodically to check if the conversation has died down yet or not but so far, it seems to have continued unabated. Unfortunately by ignoring the person, any metal roof unrelated content from that individual also gets ignored. It's sad but at least this way I can allow the individual to continue expressing themselves.

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[Crissa]

But the public safety argument isn't.

As an example, CalFire doesn't use metal roofs for the radio aerial - they have it mounted back in a standard equipment pack instead. So they'd put it on a roof rack or in the vault.

You example of military... I can't think of any current that doesn't mount the antennas onto their own panel.

The old design of just plugging through the roof and hoping that creates the right ground plane is just not the future model. But if you want to do that, you can always swap out the armor glass, or add a roof rack, or whatever.

There will be solutions. They won't be cheaper than the standard model of the Cybertruck.

-Crissa

 

[ThomasG]

But the public safety argument isn't.

As an example, CalFire doesn't use metal roofs for the radio aerial - they have it mounted back in a standard equipment pack instead. So they'd put it on a roof rack or in the vault.

You example of military... I can't think of any current that doesn't mount the antennas onto their own panel.

The old design of just plugging through the roof and hoping that creates the right ground plane is just not the future model. But if you want to do that, you can always swap out the armor glass, or add a roof rack, or whatever.

There will be solutions. They won't be cheaper than the standard model of the Cybertruck.

-Crissa

Roof racks don't really make good ground planes.

Just out of curiosity, do you use trucks for work, work with SAR in remote areas or work public safety, particularly in large area jurisdictions that don't have saturation coverage? I have a pretty good understanding of those needs and all I did was note that for my purposes I would welcome a metal roof and gave the reasons why.

A lot of jurisdictions can really get along without a mobile radio and mobile antenna thanks to complex systems and the dense populations areas served. Unfortunately, that's not me and we are often using simplex, so we need all we can get. As an example, compare what you can do today with essentially no antenna on a cell phone that has maybe .1 watt of rf out and what was needed in 1985. There was little building penetration then and most folks were using car or bag phones with 3 watts and a gain antenna. Dropped calls were common. The same thing is happening to public safety radio in urban, densely populated areas hence agencies abandoning the 50-110 watt mobiles. It is not yet happening in a lot of places were people get lost and need to be found.

I just pulled up some images of CalFire and I saw radio antennas on roof tops. I'm in FL and most FD and EMS equipment has it on cab tops. Most LE vehicles are trunk mounted here. It is a lot easier and most counties here have plenty of coverage and seldom use simplex.

The military vehicles I see that use the frequencies my little part of the USAF uses have them mounted on roof tops and trunk lids.

I don't understand how some future model changes the propagation of radio waves.

I never said I was looking for cheaper, but the two motor CyberTruck is very competitive with a 4x4 F150 or Ram in price and equipment. I will likely spend more if I go that route.

At any rate, I doubt if there is much point continuing this. I and some others would love the option of a metal roof. I doubt we will get it. I just don't understand why expressing the thought that this or that feature would make it more attractive to a particular potential buyer seems to be so bothersome and the potential buyers are told they don't need what they know they need.

 

[Crissa]

Roof racks don't really make good ground planes.

Please cite. I have no way to know either way; I haven't worked with ham radios in thirty years.

Just out of curiosity, do you use...

False appeal to authority.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Not only can't we know your credentials, neither of those things are experts in the physics of radio hardware. I might as well say my roommates in University were EE majors working on aircraft.

And as I pointed out, the new CalFire trucks mount the antenna on an equipment pack behind the cab, not the cab itself.

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

all I did was note that for my purposes I would welcome a metal roof and gave the reasons why.

I agree with you and am sorry if you feel like you are not being heard. Truth is that we are now on page 10 of this thread. A lot has happened before you commented today. You may just be sensing the tension from the previous 9 pages.

I never said I was looking for cheaper

You didn't but in this thread, there has already been a big dust-up over various thoughts and how they would be "cheaper". You may be sensing some of the side effects of those comments.

At any rate, I doubt if there is much point continuing this.

On this current thread, I would agree with you.

I and some others would love the option of a metal roof. I doubt we will get it.

I hear you. Various options and alternatives have been talked about on this thread but given your particular use case, those alternatives may not be satisfactory. Personally, my intention with the CT is to get way out into the wilds far away from anything so I am actually very interested in your radio solutions as they may be the only means of practical communication available. But I also do not have the experience or knowledge needed to have a productive discussion on the topic. So for the moment, I'm willing to wait for the CT to start shipping and then find what solutions people start implementing.

I just don't understand why expressing the thought that this or that feature would make it more attractive to a particular potential buyer seems to be so bothersome and the potential buyers are told they don't need what they know they need.

Some of the friction you are experiencing is most likely because we are still in this current thread and the progression of this particular thread has been a bumpy ride. Nothing personal to you or even to the topic at hand.

At the same time though there have been a few other topics where people have expressed a desire for a CT that has some different characteristic than what was originally announced. My personal experience in those threads is that some participants do not understand the need or desire for that characteristic and express their feedback as "You don't need <X characteristic>". This kind of response seems very unhelpful in my experience. For the most part, I try to ignore this part of the expression and listen to any expressed why around it. But that is just me.

Hopefully you will stick around and join the discussions in other threads or even create some of your own. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about the CT and how you might use it.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

Reginald and Crissa;
I agree to your comments. I don’t have a concern or care about what people wanna do with their cyber truck once they get it. If you or First truck want to get a metal roof added on, God be with you, live in peace and You be you. I have not commented much on this thread, but it did get tedious with the same things being expressed ad nausea.

No one has mentioned using the bumpers for antenna mounts either. Back when I was using radios that’s what the standard practice was. Even dual mounted antenna on the roof over the area by the doors. I suspect you were talking about an entirely more complex radio system than I had been using. I think another frustration that people have on this thread is that after the initial request no one has thought about waiting for what others implement when they get the vehicle. Unless you’re in the first 50,000 vehicles to be delivered you don’t have much to worry about. Someone in there is going to be adding accessories and posting about their experiences and what works and what doesn’t. That is what I am going to be looking for here. I want others to work out the kinks for me.

 

[firsttruck]

Havis, Troy, Jotto and Gamber Johnson are the big suppliers of consoles for public safety vehicles in the US. Some of the overhead ones look useful for a vehicle with a lot of headroom.

Very odd how google searches miss them.

I did many searches & never saw those names once.

Are they called something else?

What seach term would you use?

 

[ThomasG]

Very odd how google searches miss them.

I did many searches & never saw those names once.

Are they called something else?

What seach term would you use?

If I recall correctly, I used police vehicle consoles. I just tried it and they turned up. The overhead consoles are also useful in a vehicle with headroom as long as they can be secured properly.

 

[firsttruck]

Besides radios, here is another example of wanting to do roof ceiling mount. Instead of back seat passengers straining their eyes or have view blocked by front seat, get large screen for back seat passengers. Roof Ceiling mounted media player.

19.4-Inch Overhead Flip-Down Car Monitor - HD 1920x1080p Widescreen Car Roof Mount Monitor, Vehicle Flip Down Overhead Screen w/IR & FM Transmitter, USB, SD, HDMI, AV, Stereo Speaker - Pyle PLRV1925
https://pyleusa.com/products/plrv1925

Other major car auto accessories makers Audiovox & Alpine also have similar devices.

 

[Tim.Luchenko]

Those numbers are not weight of steel vs ALON armor glass
Those numbers above are rates (mass density, weight per volume).

** the bottom line is 3mm steel weighs a LOT LESS than 12mm Alon armor glass **
** 95.9 kg for 3mm stainless steel vs 187 kg for 12mm armor glass roof & support frame
** You can not use 3mm/6mm or 8mm of armor glass at a size of 2-meter by 2-meter **
** see below for detailed calculations **

There are two issues with the numbers you gave:

1. The numbers are mass density, only the weight for a cube of 1cm x 1cm x 1cm.
Basically the numbers are the density.
The "cm^3" part is volume.

2. The volume of material need to do approximately the same job or protection is vastly different.

To get close to 3mm 30x cold-rolled stainless steel you need approx. 12mm-15mm of aluminum oxynitride. Before aluminum oxynitride the best glass material would have required a thickness of 20mm and much heavier. Aluminum oxynitride 12mm thick is still less protection than 3mm SS metal.

aluminum oxynitride 1cm (10mm) x 200cm x 200cm
Size of window 200 cm (6.56 ft) x 200 cm (6.56 ft)
Area 40,000 cm^2 = 200 cm x 200cm (43.0336 ft2)
thickness of glass roof: 1.2 cm ( 12 mm)
total volume: 48,000 cm^3
density of aluminum oxynitride 3.696 g/cm^3
weight: 177,408 g ( 177.4 kg - 391.1 lbs)

You can not weld armor glass to 3mm steel. You also can not just glue heavy piece of armor glass to sides of hole in a 3mm sheet of steel.

You need like a L shaped metal frame for the glass to rest on.
You have to weld this frame to the other roof or side walls
then put glue/sealant on the support frame, then position the glass in the hole and frame and finally finish with more glue/sealant.

Well this support frame for the glass adds extra weight too.

Stainless 300 series L strip bracket .3 cm (3mm) x 800cm x 5cm
volume 1,200 cm^3
weight: 9,588 g ( 9.6 kg ( 21.2 lbs )

187 kg (412.3 lbs) total weight for armor glass roof & support frame

Making the frame and attaching the frame is extra the fabrication I mentioned before.
All this takes time and is more steps that need to be done. And the sealant/glue needs time to set too so more slowdowns.

Even if metal roof was an option not the default putting in a 2x2 metal piece is much easier because you do not need the frame to support the metal piece. You can just directly weld the metal roof piece to the other parts of wall or roof and no waiting after welding is done.

Metal roof
Cold-rolled Stainless 30x series sheet .3cm (3mm) 200cm x 200cm
Size of window 200cm (6.56 ft) x 2cm (6.56 ft)
Area 40,000 cm^2 = 200 cm x 200cm (43.0336 ft2)
thickness of glass roof: .3 cm ( 3 mm)
total volume: 12,000 cm^3
density of 305 stainless steel is 7.99 g/cm^3
weight: 95.9 kg ( 211.4 lbs)

Good job!

 

[firsttruck]

The ridge or peak of the roof is behind the driver’s head, so the ‘roof’ panel is only above the second row of seats.

Sorry, again more false info. The peak of the roof is NOT behind the driver ( or all the way back in the second row).

The peak is before the driver & before the B-pillar.

Here are some pics

exterior
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/Y90Nr/s1/tesla-cybertruck-outdoor-image.jpg


interior
https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tesla-cybertruck-prototype--nov-2019_100725743_l.jpg


body in white
https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/tesla-cybertruck_100725709_l.jpg

 

[firsttruck]

Here's the thing from my side. I'm not

Back to your point though. While I do not find offense with someone wanting a metal roof, I do get exasperated at individuals who continue to push their stated point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I get it. There are reasons (stated multiple times now) why a metal roof would have certain advantages. But just pushing the point repeatedly to people who have no power or influence over such an outcome gets us all nowhere. And so my approach has been to click the ignore button on a certain individual for now. I do come back periodically to check if the conversation has died down yet or not but so far, it seems to have continued unabated. Unfortunately by ignoring the person, any metal roof unrelated content from that individual also gets ignored. It's sad but at least this way I can allow the individual to continue expressing themselves.

There is this thing called threads on these forums. The title of this thread is pretty clear. Yes, this thread is longer than some but that is because more information becomes available. More ideas are exposed like ThomasG's info on how public safety users use radios. Also if incorrect info is posted the thread gets longer when corrected info is posted (how to calculate weight, where Cybertruck roof peak really is).

If you are not interested in a constructive & fact based discussion on this topic maybe you should not follow this thread. There are hundreds of other threads. You are not directly paying for this forum. Nobody pays me for the dozens of hours of research I do on the subjects I post. I voluntarily do this in hope of helping make a more sustainable future based on facts & science. If I have a fact wrong I welcome constructive correction. As someone somewhere said, "be less wrong", and I have had that philosophy before Elon was even born