New Battery Range & Pack Architecture [Announced at Battery Day]

[TI4Dan]

Look... You're stop and go pee, relax, take a break responses are merely demonstrating that even though you read my comments and those like mine - you just are unable to comprehend that some people just don't have the luxury of time that you must have. It isn't an option. So, please stop promoting it to those who are stating it isn't an option.

I can drive my Ice truck to Colorado to ski and back on $250 in gas. I've done it many times. With two sons that is three round trip plane tickets... And, the time of year we were required to go due to circumstances meant that the place we went a) had no airport and b) was a 45 minute drive one way to the slopes. Even if we flew someplace else (that wasn't guaranteed to have snow) - 3 round trip tickets would be more expensive. So, your argument about driving being cheaper is invalid for my circumstances. But, your continued responses to those you don't agree with regarding range just demonstrate that you are unable to comprehend our arguments. I don't say this to be mean. I just am trying to relate that it is possible that your life experience just does not allow for you to understand my life experience or those who want to use this truck for a hot shot business and/or don't have time due to their job constraints to sit around for 15 minutes every couple hundred miles and relax. Or, that they need to tow a really heavy trailer/load and can't stop every 150-200 miles for the charge to be topped off.

In your experience everything can be handled through a bit more patience. In the experience of many of us there simply isn't enough time.

The patience you advocate in my vacation trip means we don't have five days to relax and ski/snowboard - we have three! The rush to get there and back is totally worth it! We each sleep a third of the trip anyway!

In a business example time IS money! I have friends who would like to use the CT to hot shot.... But, in many cases the faster they make the trip the more money they make. Or, at least, if they don't make the trip in a certain amount of time they get penalized financially. So, every mile of range can count - or, make the truck more viable.

The "you don't need the range" argument is only applicable to those who have no need for the range. It is NOT applicable to those who do - regardless, of how many times it is repeated - it STILL won't be applicable.

However, the closer the CT gets to 600 or 700 miles on a charge the more all of these concerns start to fade away! If one can make a couple of relatively short charging stops to cover 1200-1400 miles. That's a different game. And, if one is towing a heavy load and can go 300 miles, pull over top off in 30 minutes and make it another 300... Well, that might cover many of the medium hot shot runs. The savings in gas would be huge. And, hopefully, we aren't that far away. I just wish I could get a dual motor with the longer range as I don't need the third motor - just more range.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on a longer range CT. I also have a Dual motor on reservation. I am not really happy with the range of the dual motor. 250 miles on single motor, dual motor 300 miles and 500 miles for tri-motor. I think it should of been 300 miles, 400 miles and 500 miles at least with options for bigger battery packs for single and dual motor. I live in Northwest Montana, we don't have any superchargers up here yet , so 300 miles is just not enough in the winter time. I hope Elon reconsiders the sparsely populated states with towns of less the 3000 people were Ace Hardware store is our second largest business and the grocery store is the number one. I would not blame Elon for skipping our town for a supercharger location but it does make a case for greater range on a single and dual motor CyberTruck.

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[shaneaus]

I wholeheartedly agree with you on a longer range CT. I also have a Dual motor on reservation. I am not really happy with the range of the dual motor. 250 miles on single motor, dual motor 300 miles and 500 miles for tri-motor. I think it should of been 300 miles, 400 miles and 500 miles at least with options for bigger battery packs for single and dual motor. I live in Northwest Montana, we don't have any superchargers up here yet , so 300 miles is just not enough in the winter time. I hope Elon reconsiders the sparsely populated states with towns of less the 3000 people were Ace Hardware store is our second largest business and the grocery store is the number one. I would not blame Elon for skipping our town for a supercharger location but it does make a case for greater range on a single and dual motor CyberTruck.

Yeah, and the people who aren't concerned about range are, seemingly, largely from California. So, less snow and less rain/inclement weather in and around most of California's major cities. My mother used to live in LA and now lives in the SF Bay area. The weather is always really nice there (a bit chilly in SF for me). So, less wind, rain, snow resistance in winter months. And, it doesn't get nearly as cold there as in many states in the US. So, the range concerns only go up. Many state the cold won't be an issue because the vehicle will manage the battery temps for operation.... LOL! That's great.... If one is leaving home to go to one other destination. But, as a working truck in which one goes from one location to stop for an hour at a place with no electricity, and do that twice more before you go someplace to charge or home. We'll, that means the CT is consuming power to maintain battery temps and taking away from the range even when the truck isn't being driven.

Lots of things to consider that some people that won't use the truck for a business just don't have the experience to speak about.

I'm sure most CT owners will just be using it as a typical suburban transportation vehicle - for that, the current CT will be great. But, to really take over the US work truck market the CT needs more power capacity. I feel like I'm beating a poor dead horse by repeating that statement. Apologies!

"Where Ace Hardware store is our second largest business" My fiance says my second home is Home Depot (very close to my house)! She calls and says are you at home? I say, yes. She asks, which one! LOL I wish the Ace Hardware was closer - but, I try to go there as often as possible.

 

[Frank W]

I wholeheartedly agree with you on a longer range CT. I also have a Dual motor on reservation. I am not really happy with the range of the dual motor. 250 miles on single motor, dual motor 300 miles and 500 miles for tri-motor. I think it should of been 300 miles, 400 miles and 500 miles at least with options for bigger battery packs for single and dual motor. I live in Northwest Montana, we don't have any superchargers up here yet , so 300 miles is just not enough in the winter time. I hope Elon reconsiders the sparsely populated states with towns of less the 3000 people were Ace Hardware store is our second largest business and the grocery store is the number one. I would not blame Elon for skipping our town for a supercharger location but it does make a case for greater range on a single and dual motor CyberTruck.

Just wanted to point out that if you are charging from home then having a super charger in your town is pointless. It will be cheaper to charge at home than at a super charger so when you sleep it’s being charged.

 

[shaneaus]

Just wanted to point out that if you are charging from home then having a super charger in your town is pointless. It will be cheaper to charge at home than at a super charger so when you sleep it’s being charged.

I think you are missing the point that the range isn't long enough for him to make many trips because he would need to charge the truck to be able to get back home. In the great "rural west" ones "home town" might be an hour or more drive away going up/down steep grades, winding roads, and hauling a trailer means range is really important. Sure, one can charge at home. But, one still needs to be able to charge away from home to be able to get back home.

 

[Frank W]

I read a story in the past that indicated something along the lines that over 90% of the people in the US are within something like 150 miles of a charger and of course that is changing all the time. If I recall that article was from Tesla but I could be mistaken. Wish I could find the data. I do understand your point though. While I have zero experience personally I would also think that those steep grades would also be beneficial for regenerative gains.

 

[shaneaus]

I read a story in the past that indicated something along the lines that over 90% of the people in the US are within something like 150 miles of a charger and of course that is changing all the time. If I recall that article was from Tesla but I could be mistaken. Wish I could find the data. I do understand your point though. While I have zero experience personally I would also think that those steep grades would also be beneficial for regenerative gains.

That 90% - a vast majority of Americans reside in cities. So, that number is great - but, doesn't really account well for rural population. It is like Sprint /T-mobile saying they have 90% cell coverage many years ago. Yep. Their coverage was great as long as one didn't drive outside the city and into the countryside! LOL! I remember looking at a T-mobile map and the major cities had coverage and there would be little lines on the map where they covered the highways! If you left the highway outside a city one had nothing! Huge areas of the rockies had nothing at all.

Personally, I don't have much experience driving an ev up /down steep grades. But, my understanding (and, someone more knowledgeable please chime in) the regenerative breaking helps but doesn't capture enough to offset much when so much power is used to pull a heavy load or trailer up the grade. It is much more equivalent when one has no load or trailer.

 

[TI4Dan]

Just wanted to point out that if you are charging from home then having a supercharger in your town is pointless. It will be cheaper to charge at home than at a supercharger so when you sleep it’s being charged.

I always had planned on charging at home, two years ago I had my local utility company put in a bigger transformer so I could have two 200 amp service panels for home and shop. I had planned for a BEV as part of my vehicle future. You are right the beauty of EV's are charge at home at very economical rates.

 

[Frank W]

I found a article that mentioned it and this was 2018. https://www.thedrive.com/news/22830...tion-lives-within-150-miles-of-a-supercharger. I agree with you that when pulling heavy loads up steep grades will be draining the battery much faster and I would love to know what would be captured on the decline but I am sure that there are too many variables.

 

[shaneaus]

I found a article that mentioned it and this was 2018. https://www.thedrive.com/news/22830...tion-lives-within-150-miles-of-a-supercharger. I agree with you that when pulling heavy loads up steep grades will be draining the battery much faster and I would love to know what would be captured on the decline but I am sure that there are too many variables.

Yep. But, as I saw when I did my trip check... There is no charger anywhere Lubbock, TX from what the route planner website advised. Unless, I had a 500 mile CT I would have to detour by 2 hrs of drive time to cross that region of Texas just to stay in range of a charger (with additional time to stop and charge added for the additional distance). With a 500 mile CT I could cross that region and have 10% battery when I got to the other side! But, that didn't take into account inclement weather, driving into a headwind, etc. One year we made that trip and faced a headwind most of the way across Texas. Another year we fought through a blizzard on the way back! Even if we had a 500 mile CT we would have had to detour on those trips because there wouldn't be enough range to cross that region.

This comment is unrelated to the regeneration.

 

[Frank W]

Well hopefully before the end of the year they will have something available.

https://www.tesla.com/findus/location/supercharger/lubbocksupercharger

 

[shaneaus]

Well hopefully before the end of the year they will have something available.

https://www.tesla.com/findus/location/supercharger/lubbocksupercharger

NICE!! That is one thing about Tesla - they don't sit around in their laurels.

But, that still won't help much for those towing heavy loads as that would be right at the 250 mile range from either direction in my trip. It'll be great for those who can afford the 500 mile CT's. But, if one had a 300 mile CT and was using it as a work truck there would still be range concern. But, hopefully, as others have said the installation of charges will continue to penetrate rural areas!

 

[ldjessee]

But be aware the EPA range is rarely reflective of real world range.
For instance straight off the top people aren't allowed to regularly fill their battery to 100% and its not encouraged to go below about 15% or so.

...

Which is why Ford is going to offer the Electric F150 with a generator for the bed of the truck.
https://www.teslarati.com/ford-fights-tesla-cybertruck-with-f150-gas-generator/
"Like the battery pack, the generator may be operably connected to the electric machine through the inverter over the voltage bus. The generator may also be connected in either parallel or series relative to the battery pack,” Ford’s patent noted"


The following TFL video might be quite interesting to those who are unaware.

P.S. Those 4680 Batteries and the additional range they will bring will be very welcome.
But in Elon's own words, they hope to START seeing the benefits from the 4680 in 12-18 mths, and have the full scale benefits in about 3 yrs.
The interesting thing is, the Austin Factory looks like it will be ready to produce Cybertrucks as early as around June 2021.
So there's a likely issue with what batteries (and range) will be included when the first Cybertrucks are being delivered !

It is true that older chemistry did not like being drained that low nor filled that high regularly. Not sure what the new 'High Nickel' batteries will be like. Maybe they will tolerate the drain to lower percentages... but is also like saying people never get the range of their gas car because no one drives until the gas tank is empty.

The gas generator is a way for Ford to sell more gas engines. The connections would also allow an additional battery pack, will that be an option where people do not want (or might not be able to legally) have a vehicle that pollutes?

There are many things wrong with the TFL video about the Model X towing, which has been discussed in different threads. Yes, towing pulls more energy from the battery than driving without towing. I think this is a much better discussion of the issue: (Of course, cut the cost of the battery by a significant amount and increase the density, which are two of his major points)

The 4680 is already in production, they have made over 10,000 cells and have been driving test cars on them since May. I believe he said they will not be in 'Serious mass production' for 12 to 18 months. Even their pilot line will get up to 2GWh in the next year, so I expect them to have quite the stack of cells ready for the Model S Plaid, CyberTruck, and Semi...

I think that quote was more about the high nickel chemistry. The things announced were several technologies that when grouped together gave a lot of benefits, but the tabless design and 4680 cell size are already here, so even with the existing chemistry and those two features, they can go forward and as the other technologies ramp up, then can be added.

I also believe that they said Austin and Berlin factories will make batteries as well. That gives us the pilot line in California, full production in Austin and Berlin. Maybe they will do lines in Nevada, but I do not remember Tesla saying that. I know many have speculated that they would make the new cells in Nevada.

 

[TI4Dan]

Yeah, and the people who aren't concerned about range are, seemingly, largely from California. So, less snow and less rain/inclement weather in and around most of California's major cities. My mother used to live in LA and now lives in the SF Bay area. The weather is always really nice there (a bit chilly in SF for me). So, less wind, rain, snow resistance in winter months. And, it doesn't get nearly as cold there as in many states in the US. So, the range concerns only go up. Many state the cold won't be an issue because the vehicle will manage the battery temps for operation.... LOL! That's great.... If one is leaving home to go to one other destination. But, as a working truck in which one goes from one location to stop for an hour at a place with no electricity, and do that twice more before you go someplace to charge or home. We'll, that means the CT is consuming power to maintain battery temps and taking away from the range even when the truck isn't being driven.

Lots of things to consider that some people that won't use the truck for a business just don't have the experience to speak about.

I'm sure most CT owners will just be using it as a typical suburban transportation vehicle - for that, the current CT will be great. But, to really take over the US work truck market the CT needs more power capacity. I feel like I'm beating a poor dead horse by repeating that statement. Apologies!

"Where Ace Hardware store is our second largest business" My fiance says my second home is Home Depot (very close to my house)! She calls and says are you at home? I say, yes. She asks, which one! LOL I wish the Ace Hardware was closer - but, I try to go there as often as possible.

You have hit the nail on the head....bravo bravo, I have to drive 90 plus miles to Kalispell where the major box stores are. It's worth the trip for me when I have to buy supplies in quantity. I have have driven the distance in the middle of winter, you can barely make out where the road is so I drive it at 45 mph or less which means no less than 4 hours of travel time with heater on and I drive home at night with lights on, I have no idea how much mileage will be lost but I read about the guys in Canada with the Prius and they wear jackets in the car so they can go farther... made me laugh, I won't wear my jacket while driving, I thought that's what the heaters for. I read your response to my wife gave
us a good laugh. I all so seen the "90% of folks are 150 miles from
a supercharge", I reflected on that truth and if I was going to Idaho yes but they pay sales tax and we don't so no supercharger where I go but during the months we have California type weather I am confident Cybertruck will make the round trip but, when Montana goes into winter, different story I wonder how many folks realize up here we have two sets of tires for every vehicle we plan on using in the winter. I have over 12 studded tires that in fact by the end of the month I have to swap all my vehicles out. I did not write this for you so much but so others can see it's what future Cybertruck need. Thanks for what you expressed is true and funny and Elon please think about range it's also about staying warm and I don't want to wear my winter jacket while I drive in order to drive a little farther.

 

[Luke42]

the regenerative breaking helps but doesn't capture enough to offset much when so much power is used to pull a heavy load or trailer up the grade.

Trailer brakes are friction brakes. No regen.

Bums me out when towing with my hybrid pickup truck.

But, trailer brakes are vital to the stability and safety of a truck + trailer combination, so it's a necessary cost at this point.

Adding regen to a trailer is harder than it looks, due to the existence of a well-established tech stack with standardized interfaces, interchangeable trailers, and a large installed base of existing hardware. Adding regen/power to a trailer is certainly possible, but there's much more to it than many of the engineering-daydreamers (of which I am often one) are likely see on their first pass through the issues.

 

[Luke42]

But be aware the EPA range is rarely reflective of real world range.

I am aware of this.

I'm hoping that the + on the 500+ mile range Tesla is advertising translates to 500 miles of real world range.

I'll be keeping the charge around 50% (between 20% and 80% for sure) for daily driving for the longevity of the battery. I have a relatively short commute (my city is a square about 7 miles on a side), and do doing this will fit my pattern just fine.

But, honestly, my existing full sized pickup truck has a 450 mile range with a full tank (and no trailer) -- and that's working out just fine for me, even without home charging. I'm not hitting the limits of that any time soon.

Yes, range drops dramatically when I tow a travel trailer with my existing truck, just as it will with an EV. However, the range penalty works out fine for my purposes. When we stop, herding the cats (getting 2 adults 3 kids to all move in the same direction) takes longer than the charging times under discussion. Also, there are Super Chargers on the routes I frequent.

Changing the range by 15% in either direction means the truck will still suit my pattern just fine. At 500ish miles, I'm good. At 500-miles real-world miles, I'm great.

My needs (and wants) happen to fit within the 500-mile envelope. I hope Tesla provides an option for all y'all with needs which exceed than envelope, though!