An interesting survival solution...

[Crissa]

My Zero's charger only uses two wires. Hot and Hot (inverse). There's a Ground, but it doesn't use it.

So the assertion that it must have four wires is clearly untrue. ^-^

-Crissa

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[ajdelange]

what about my idea to jack up the back of the CT, or any rwd ev, rotate the back tires with some device (like a water wheel) would this be able to charge the car via regen? (asuming you can get it spinning fast enough)

The machines in the skateboard are four quadrant machines which means that they can absorb torque as well as generate it which is what they do when they are being used for regen. But you don't need RJ's PHD from MIT to see that there is no possibility of a practical application of this to battery charging in the field. Where would you get the torque?

 

[rr6013]

A interesting survival solution...
snip... I would like to discuss some of the negative and positive potential the CT has as a Survival Related Vehicle (SRV) for when the "Sh1t hits the fan" (SHTF)

SHTF scenarios I’ve studied to the point of outline for a work of fiction. it has since been published by an author. In the USA and SoCal, in particular, SHTF survival from _any_ population point is constrained. Freeway capacity limits the ability of all vehicles to travel outside the city before gridlock occurs. Alternate routes provide limited extensions of time but not much more distance. Escape is near impossible from islands, peninsulas or non-throughfare corridors.

Take your <FAV> SHTF scenario. You. You have seconds to escape by car. Freeway traffic grows exponentially the further away from the perimeter of your city limits. Forget it if you begin escape on any of the deadend corridors mentioned above.

What does CT buy you in SHTF scenario? Quickness.

CT lightning quick acceleration buys you egress faster than ICE. It could make the difference between getting out or getting stuck in a traffic jam. BUT the instant you become stuck in traffic your CT is no different than any other car. You are everyman.

What advantage does CT buy you being stuck in SHTF?

Stuck devolves quickly into dangerous. People can’t see why traffic is not moving. People ggpet out of cars. Strangers begin walking. People you’ve never seen before march up through traffic. Some carry things. Longer stuck persists gangs walk through the cars. They are searching. Traffic is so congested no Police cars can penetrate the traffic jam. It is everyman for himself. Robbery begins. Gangs move running up the ranks of cars. You see clearly weapons, baseball bats and chains.

CT Armor Glass affords a level of deterrence to effort needed to penetrate the glass greenhouse that surrounds you. CT 30X ultra hardened cold rolled S.S. repels rather than absorbs blows and bullets. You have another level of safety factor to calm your immediate fear.

It has been three hours you have moved only two blocks. The car in front of you has run out of gas. You must go around.

What advantage does CT buy you getting around obstacles?

Derelict and abandoned you have no problem cutting across lanes of travel into the road ditch dirt and grass. But others follow you, Some shouldn’t. soon the ditch is a clusterfuck of tangled vehicles and angry escapists who don’t want you to get ahead of the line. People have tire irons standing beside their stalled car. You don’t want to cut in front of this guy to start a fight.

What advantage does CT buy you in a conflict?

Mob behavior is unpredictable, escalates and turns deadly. CT electric torque motor piwers over the concrete culvert in front of your truck. CT high clearance raises the skid plate chassis above and over the culvert obstacle to clear it anf the menacing tire iron enforcer in-stance only. A side road appears up on top of the ditch you’ve just rose up and out from. Its open. You get the hell away from a deteriorating dangerous calamity.

Eventually, you praise you Cybertruck as its proprietary mapping is working with Starlink overhead. It charts a path. WAZE stopped hours ago. Apple iOS is showing “RED” streets everywhere. It is simply oversaturated with users all asking for a mapping solution. Its deadlocked.

Now even Starlink is out of routes as you’ve cut across private property. You know this old “kegger” shortcut to the backcountry. Freeways and highways are all stopped. Looting and burlary are rampant. Not even CT nor hardware4 can help you. But it needn’.

CT got you out of there. CT escaped the devolving situation its in the, proverbial, rearview mirror. You know from here how to take the back way into Anza-Borrego, the desert. CT has 50% charge. You know Coyote Canyon will suck 30% getting to your hidey holdout. BUT this time of year you have 4’ feet deep water cross.

You can try CT to see if its a beast too! If not you can walk-in the last 5 miles to your secret stash.

 

[Frankenblob]

SHTF scenarios I’ve studied to the point of outline for a work of fiction. it has since been published by an author. In the USA and SoCal, in particular, SHTF survival from _any_ population point is constrained. Freeway capacity limits the ability of all vehicles to travel outside the city before gridlock occurs. Alternate routes provide limited extensions of time but not much more distance. Escape is near impossible from islands, peninsulas or non-throughfare corridors.

Take your <FAV> SHTF scenario. You. You have seconds to escape by car. Freeway traffic grows exponentially the further away from the perimeter of your city limits. Forget it if you begin escape on any of the deadend corridors mentioned above.

What does CT buy you in SHTF scenario? Quickness.

CT lightning quick acceleration buys you egress faster than ICE. It could make the difference between getting out or getting stuck in a traffic jam. BUT the instant you become stuck in traffic your CT is no different than any other car. You are everyman.

What advantage does CT buy you being stuck in SHTF?

Stuck devolves quickly into dangerous. People can’t see why traffic is not moving. People ggpet out of cars. Strangers begin walking. People you’ve never seen before march up through traffic. Some carry things. Longer stuck persists gangs walk through the cars. They are searching. Traffic is so congested no Police cars can penetrate the traffic jam. It is everyman for himself. Robbery begins. Gangs move running up the ranks of cars. You see clearly weapons, baseball bats and chains.

CT Armor Glass affords a level of deterrence to effort needed to penetrate the glass greenhouse that surrounds you. CT 30X ultra hardened cold rolled S.S. repels rather than absorbs blows and bullets. You have another level of safety factor to calm your immediate fear.

It has been three hours you have moved only two blocks. The car in front of you has run out of gas. You must go around.

What advantage does CT buy you getting around obstacles?

Derelict and abandoned you have no problem cutting across lanes of travel into the road ditch dirt and grass. But others follow you, Some shouldn’t. soon the ditch is a clusterfuck of tangled vehicles and angry escapists who don’t want you to get ahead of the line. People have tire irons standing beside their stalled car. You don’t want to cut in front of this guy to start a fight.

What advantage does CT buy you in a conflict?

Mob behavior is unpredictable, escalates and turns deadly. CT electric torque motor piwers over the concrete culvert in front of your truck. CT high clearance raises the skid plate chassis above and over the culvert obstacle to clear it anf the menacing tire iron enforcer in-stance only. A side road appears up on top of the ditch you’ve just rose up and out from. Its open. You get the hell away from a deteriorating dangerous calamity.

Eventually, you praise you Cybertruck as its proprietary mapping is working with Starlink overhead. It charts a path. WAZE stopped hours ago. Apple iOS is showing “RED” streets everywhere. It is simply oversaturated with users all asking for a mapping solution. Its deadlocked.

Now even Starlink is out of routes as you’ve cut across private property. You know this old “kegger” shortcut to the backcountry. Freeways and highways are all stopped. Looting and burlary are rampant. Not even CT nor hardware4 can help you. But it needn’.

CT got you out of there. CT escaped the devolving situation its in the, proverbial, rearview mirror. You know from here how to take the back way into Anza-Borrego, the desert. CT has 50% charge. You know Coyote Canyon will suck 30% getting to your hidey holdout. BUT this time of year you have 4’ feet deep water cross.

You can try CT to see if its a beast too! If not you can walk-in the last 5 miles to your secret stash.

Motorcycles, particularly off road and whether or not electric, would work great too.
With all those "stalled out" vehicles ones gas supply would be abundant.

 

[Luke42]

However, the ground to electronics is all relative. No EV can tell if the neutral is properly grounded because it isn't grounded to the earth, either. It can only know if the ground wire goes nowhere. And most don't care, so I don't know why ajdelange asserted it would. Ground isn't used in 240v charging systems.

This is an electrical safety issue, not a "will it work" issue.

In this context, the EV charger's view of the world is through the three pins (hot, neutral, ground) on the charging plug.

If the voltages on the wires don't match expectations, then a sufficiently smart EV charger should refuse to charge (even though, as you point out, it *can* charge), due to a ground fault.

The reason, of course, is electrical safety. Unsafe electrical systems often work just fine. For the purposes of electrical safety, the surrounding environment and neutral wire need to be brought to the same static voltage in a controlled way. If they are not connected via a wire, they can (in rare circumstances) be connected through the body of a person, and the paths through which they can connect are counterintuitive to a lot of people (including electrical engineers who work with this stuff every day). That shit kills people, especially the technicians who install and maintain electrical equipment.

If you're an electrical engineer with a PE certification, you have an ethical responsibility to the public to prevent these kind of electrical safety problems wherever you can.

You're completely right about what it takes to extract energy from the hot and neutral wires. Electrical systems will often work well enough without proper grounding. This is an electrical safety issue, though, which is more subtle than the "can it work" question.

 

[Luke42]

My Zero's charger only uses two wires. Hot and Hot (inverse). There's a Ground, but it doesn't use it.

You can get away with that if you're absofuckinglutely perfect about insulating all of the electrical components from the surrounding environment.

This is common in small appliances, because you can often pull that off in a small box.

The ground wire usually goes to the metal case of the device (knowing that the ground and neutral are required to connected upstream by the NEC). This prevents you from getting shocked when you touch the box, because then the case is guaranteed to be at the same baseline voltage as the surrounding environment. This also makes malfunctions in the electrical equipment less fatal to people working with the device.

 

[Crissa]

This is an electrical safety issue, not a "will it work" issue.

No, the argument that it can't be safe unless it's anchored to the ground is of course safer. And there was another about how there had to be four conduits for all cases. But that's simply not true.

A car that doesn't move is 'safer' than one that does.

This argument that you can't plug an EV into a generator because it's unsafe is just dumb. An EV is just like anything else you plug into a generator. Even a toaster should have a ground. For the same reasons.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

In this context, the EV charger's view of the world is through the three pins (hot, neutral, ground) on the charging plug.

The charger in a Tesla connects to 5 wires. Two are used for signalling. One is a ground/earth wire and the other two (the large ones) are "hot" carrying AC in Level 1 and Level 2 charging and DC in Level 3. In Level 1 one of them is connected to the premise's neutral and the other to a phase. In Level 2 both are connected to phases. There is no connection to neutral in Level 2. In Level 3 both are connected to the DC supply.

If the voltages on the wires don't match expectations, then a sufficiently smart EV charger should refuse to charge (even though, as you point out, it *can* charge), due to a ground fault.

The Tesla charger looks for the presence of a car and an EVSE and reads the EVSE's ampacity. It assumes the EVSE is plugged into or wired into a properly installed premises wiring system. Under that assumption, the presence of 120 V begtween ground and hot proves that the system is intact (no broken or loose wires). If one is not is a properly wired premises (e.g. using at generator at a campsite) one can fool the charger into thinking it is by insuring 120 between H and G. I don't see how a ground fault would do this but maybe there is some flavor of a ground fault that I can't think of off hand that would.

For the purposes of electrical safety, the surrounding environment and neutral wire need to be brought to the same static voltage in a controlled way.

There are other reasons too. We want the phases equally distributed about ground potential. This minimizes the stresses on insulators, males faults symmetrical etc.

If they are not connected via a wire, they can (in rare circumstances) be connected through the body of a person,

The circumstances aren't that rare and that's why we have these provisions in the codes. Now I somehow survived childhood in a house without this kind of wiring but we are definitely safer now that we were in those days.'

..and the paths through which they can connect are counterintuitive to a lot of people (including electrical engineers who work with this stuff every day).

Truer words were never spoken. Grounding problems have plagued many an engineer and many a code writing panel over the years. The code contains conflicting requirements, especially in the newer sections that deal with grounding and BEVs i.e. the newer sections.

 

[ajdelange]

The ground wire usually goes to the metal case of the device (knowing that the ground and neutral are required to connected upstream by the NEC). This prevents you from getting shocked when you touch the box, because then the case is guaranteed to be at the same baseline voltage as the surrounding environment. This also makes malfunctions in the electrical equipment less fatal to people working with the device.

What it is there for is to provide a path back to the source (panel, generator) for any ground fault current other than through someone (or thing) touching the enclosure. Obviously this also prevents shock but also insures a low impedance path for the fault current such that there is plenty of it to operate the protective device (breaker) at the panel.

 

[Newton]

The machines in the skateboard are four quadrant machines which means that they can absorb torque as well as generate it which is what they do when they are being used for regen. But you don't need RJ's PHD from MIT to see that there is no possibility of a practical application of this to battery charging in the field. Where would you get the torque?

this thread was suppose to be about like a shit hit the fan, or survival solutions. so, practical in that case is much different than now.
how much torque do you think would be needed? i cant imagine it being too much.
as its just rotating the wheels and magnetic flux.

 

[ajdelange]

It isn't a question alone of how much torque is needed - it's a question of torque x angular velocity i.e. power. Assuming you have a water wheel in mind be aware that there are portable water wheels made for charging cell phones. They typically produce 5 W. That's not enough to practically charge anything other than, well, cell phones. If you could put the truck on a dynamometer, tow it behind another vehicle or roll it down a hill you cold couple enough power into it to charge it at a reasonable rate. PTO from a tractor might do it too but if I had a tractor with a PTO I'd probably put a generator on the PTO and use that as opposed to trying to kluge something mechanical. Then there is the matter of control. Tesla currently specifically warns against towing the vehicle under any circumstances so their software is definitely not set up to allow charging from one wheel.

 

[YeahYeahYeah]

Just make sure to set up an OP while solar charging in SHTF scenarios, or you'll be getting them CT's jacked

 

[Old Pro]

I disagree.
You claim to understand electricity better than me. Again I ask:

Is there a way to submit the question of a generator to the Tesla Engineers directly?

 

[Old Pro]

SHTF scenarios I’ve studied to the point of outline for a work of fiction. it has since been published by an author. In the USA and SoCal, in particular, SHTF survival from _any_ population point is constrained. Freeway capacity limits the ability of all vehicles to travel outside the city before gridlock occurs. Alternate routes provide limited extensions of time but not much more distance. Escape is near impossible from islands, peninsulas or non-throughfare corridors.

Take your <FAV> SHTF scenario. You. You have seconds to escape by car. Freeway traffic grows exponentially the further away from the perimeter of your city limits. Forget it if you begin escape on any of the deadend corridors mentioned above.

What does CT buy you in SHTF scenario? Quickness.

CT lightning quick acceleration buys you egress faster than ICE. It could make the difference between getting out or getting stuck in a traffic jam. BUT the instant you become stuck in traffic your CT is no different than any other car. You are everyman.

What advantage does CT buy you being stuck in SHTF?

Stuck devolves quickly into dangerous. People can’t see why traffic is not moving. People ggpet out of cars. Strangers begin walking. People you’ve never seen before march up through traffic. Some carry things. Longer stuck persists gangs walk through the cars. They are searching. Traffic is so congested no Police cars can penetrate the traffic jam. It is everyman for himself. Robbery begins. Gangs move running up the ranks of cars. You see clearly weapons, baseball bats and chains.

CT Armor Glass affords a level of deterrence to effort needed to penetrate the glass greenhouse that surrounds you. CT 30X ultra hardened cold rolled S.S. repels rather than absorbs blows and bullets. You have another level of safety factor to calm your immediate fear.

It has been three hours you have moved only two blocks. The car in front of you has run out of gas. You must go around.

What advantage does CT buy you getting around obstacles?

Derelict and abandoned you have no problem cutting across lanes of travel into the road ditch dirt and grass. But others follow you, Some shouldn’t. soon the ditch is a clusterfuck of tangled vehicles and angry escapists who don’t want you to get ahead of the line. People have tire irons standing beside their stalled car. You don’t want to cut in front of this guy to start a fight.

What advantage does CT buy you in a conflict?

Mob behavior is unpredictable, escalates and turns deadly. CT electric torque motor piwers over the concrete culvert in front of your truck. CT high clearance raises the skid plate chassis above and over the culvert obstacle to clear it anf the menacing tire iron enforcer in-stance only. A side road appears up on top of the ditch you’ve just rose up and out from. Its open. You get the hell away from a deteriorating dangerous calamity.

Eventually, you praise you Cybertruck as its proprietary mapping is working with Starlink overhead. It charts a path. WAZE stopped hours ago. Apple iOS is showing “RED” streets everywhere. It is simply oversaturated with users all asking for a mapping solution. Its deadlocked.

Now even Starlink is out of routes as you’ve cut across private property. You know this old “kegger” shortcut to the backcountry. Freeways and highways are all stopped. Looting and burlary are rampant. Not even CT nor hardware4 can help you. But it needn’.

CT got you out of there. CT escaped the devolving situation its in the, proverbial, rearview mirror. You know from here how to take the back way into Anza-Borrego, the desert. CT has 50% charge. You know Coyote Canyon will suck 30% getting to your hidey holdout. BUT this time of year you have 4’ feet deep water cross.

You can try CT to see if its a beast too! If not you can walk-in the last 5 miles to your secret stash.

Sush on Coyote Canyon and Coyote Creek!

 

[ajdelange]

Is there a way to submit the question of a generator to the Tesla Engineers directly?

No need. The manuals say one should not charge a Tesla from a "privately owned" generator.