Tesla’s subtle Supercharger ‘V4’ hints are pointing at the Cybertruck’s 350 kW charge rate

[VolklKatana]

seen on : https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-v4-cybertruck-350-kw-charging/

Tesla’s subtle Supercharger ‘V4’ hints are pointing at the Cybertruck’s 350 kW charge rate
(CREDIT: @FUTUREJURVETSON/ TWITTER)

By Simon Alvarez
Posted on October 22, 2020

Hints about what could very well be Tesla’s next-generation Supercharger “V4” system were shared in the company’s recently-held Q3 earnings call. During the call’s Q&A segment, President of Automotive Jerome Guillen mentioned that Tesla is looking at 350 kW chargers for its cars. These likely include next-generation vehicles like the Model S Plaid and the Cybertruck.

The references to the company’s “V4” Superchargers were shared as a response to a question from Loup Ventures’ Gene Munster, who inquired about the Tesla Semi’s Megacharger ramp. Responding to the analyst’s question, Guillen stated that the Class 8 truck would require a charging system above the 350 kW chargers that the company is looking to release for its vehicles.


“We continue the development of the Semi. And in particular, Megachargers, we realized that the 350-kilowatt or so that we might be looking for cars is not going to be enough for Semi,” Guillen said.

While subtle, the Tesla executive’s statement does provide a confirmation of sorts that the electric car maker is already preparing for the rollout of its next-generation Superchargers. This is quite interesting, considering that Supercharger V3’s 250 kW output already allows vehicles like the Model 3 to charge at rates of up to 1000 mph. With the V3 Superchargers, vehicles could regain up to 75 miles of range in just 5 minutes, a notable improvement from the company’s V2 stations.


Considering that Supercharger V3 is already extremely quick, Tesla’s Supercharger “V4” system would most definitely be even more impressive.

The V3 chargers, after all, are already game-changing on their own with their 250 kW output. One could only imagine how much faster Tesla’s vehicles could charge once the company rolls out a charging system that has peak rates of 350 kW.

Interestingly enough, signs of an upcoming “V4” Supercharger were mentioned by Elon Musk during the Cybertruck’s unveiling last year. While discussing the vehicle’s features, Musk went through a slide that noted that the Cybertruck would have a maximum charge rate that’s beyond 250 kW. This suggested that the all-electric pickup truck would be compatible with a system that’s more powerful than the V3 Superchargers currently available today. This, together, with Jerome Guillen’s statement in the Q3 earnings call, infers that the Cybertruck, once it’s released, would most likely support up to 350 kW charging.

Advertisement

 

[ajdelange]

If the CT charges at 350 kWh and uses 500 Wh/Mi then a full charge would take 43 minutes (rate 700 miles per hour). If it (and I hope that's the case) is more like 400 Wh/mi then full charge would take 34 minutes and the rate 875 miles per hour. At 250 kW (V3) the time at 500 Wh/mi would be an hour and the rate 500 mpH and at 400 Wh/mi 48 minutes and 625 mph. The CT needs 350 kW charging and Tesla needs to provide that to stay abreast of the competition. I am most interested in how they will handle this with the CT. Will they go to 800V architecture within the car or just double up on 400V?

 

[azjohn]

Elon in a tweet responded to a question about SC rates and was asked about 350KW and he responded with "Thats childs play"

After Battery day I started thinking that 350KW could be standard in any of the 4680 cells

 

[VolklKatana]

Elon in a tweet responded to a question about SC rates and was asked about 350KW and he responded with "Thats childs play"

After Battery day I started thinking that 350KW could be standard in any of the 4680 cells

Wouldnt something in the 700-800kw range be incredible? Make the Hummer's supposed 10 min per 100Mi laughable

 

[ajdelange]

Elon in a tweet responded to a question about SC rates and was asked about 350KW and he responded with "Thats childs play"

Here is are the specs for the CharIn HPC class chargers:

An HPC class charger shall be capable of supplying, as a minimum, any voltage in the range from 200 V to 920 VDC, any current in the range from 5 A to 500 A and in any combination such that the product of voltage and current is less than 150 kW for the HPC150 class, less than 250 kW for the HPC250 class and less than 350 kW for the HPC350 class.

The 350 kW chargers EA is putting in the field support this (AFAIK). The Tesla SC clearly do not (though Tesla is a member of CharIn). Thus the charger technology exists and it is a matter of Tesla configuring its battery in such a way that it can avail itself of the power that HPC350 (or similar) chargers offer. In a nutshell that means either having a battery pack of more than 700 V or one that can be configured as over 700 V. As many of you know Rivian has a 400 V battery which it reconfigures to 800 for charging thus demonstrating that the technology exists on the vehicle side of the interface too.

Doing this does mean new insulation standards, higher voltage semi conductors etc. If all that is child's play as far as Elon is concerned then who am I to disagree?

After Battery day I started thinking that 350KW could be standard in any of the 4680 cells

You can do it with any cell. Doesn't matter which particular one is being used. There just have to be enough of them that no single one charges at a higher rate than is good for it. Assuming, for example, that the CT Tri has a 200 kWh pack charging it at 350 kW amounts to 1.75C which is not excessive.

 

[ajdelange]

Wouldnt something in the 700-800kw range be incredible? Make the Hummer's supposed 10 min per 100Mi laughable

Assuming, as we did in the last post, that a TriMotor CT has a 200 kWh battery charging it at 800 kW implies 4C. That's double or triple the rate most of the manufacturers seem to be using. There may be implications. Also 800 kW means we are looking at voltages >1200 and currents > 650 A unless just paralleling two HPC350 chargers or similar is the approach taken. This is what they are doing with the Semi now (paralleling multiple V3 chargers) but I think this is thought of as an interim measure.

 

[VolklKatana]

Assuming, as we did in the last post, that a TriMotor CT has a 200 kWh battery charging it at 800 kW implies 4C. That's double or triple the rate most of the manufacturers seem to be using. There may be implications. Also 800 kW means we are looking at voltages >1200 and currents > 650 A unless just paralleling two HPC350 chargers or similar is the approach taken. This is what they are doing with the Semi now (paralleling multiple V3 chargers) but I think this is thought of as an interim measure.

Thanks for adding detail and context to my flippant comments. I always enjoy reading your explanations!

 

[ajdelange]

I didn't take the comment as flippant at all. Given that we can charge at 150, 250, and 350 kW I think asking about even higher rates is a very reasonable thing to do.

 

[Sandy38618]

could ports to charge on either or both sides of the CT allow use of two less power charging handles at the same time speed charging and keep input ports cooler?

 

[Bigvbear]

could ports to charge on either or both sides of the CT allow use of two less power charging handles at the same time speed charging and keep input ports cooler?

I have kinda wondered about the CT charging. If you look at the pictures of the prototype the charging port door is rather large, much larger than any other Tesla vehicle. Considering how small a supercharger plug is, I am wondering why such a big door?

I have come to 2 possible things with that....either the CT will have 2 SC plugs or 1 SC and 1 CCS combo plug to allow for charging at non-tesla charging stations without an adapter.

As for as V4 charging. They have not even finished the rollout of V3 chargers yet. Will v1 and v2 chargers go bye bye?

 

[ajdelange]

I have kinda wondered about the CT charging. If you look at the pictures of the prototype the charging port door is rather large, much larger than any other Tesla vehicle. Considering how small a supercharger plug is, I am wondering why such a big door?

Ooooo!

I have come to 2 possible things with that....either the CT will have 2 SC plugs or 1 SC and 1 CCS combo plug to allow for charging at non-tesla charging stations without an adapter.

I am guessing and hoping for the former because I rather think Tesla will continue to shun CCS. Another possibility is a seond port unique to the CT which resembles what is on the Semi. CT users (this might only be on the TriMotor) would then be able to charge at a Semi charging station or, as the Semi's do today, use an adapter box to charge from multiple V2's or V3's. I see some issues with doing that at a busy V2/V3 station though. Apparently when a Semi does that now a Tesla crew appears and sets out cones...

As for as V4 charging. They have not even finished the rollout of V3 chargers yet. Will v1 and v2 chargers go bye bye?

A V3 charger is a V2 charger with more modules in it. Similarly a V4 unit will be a V3 unit with more modules still and perhaps a second hose or, looked at another way, 2 V3's in the same cabinet.

One nice aspect of two of the current type ports is that the vehicle could be charged at double speed at home with dual HPWC.

This is the aspect of the CT that I am most antsy about.

 

[Crissa]

Similarly a V4 unit will be a V3 unit with more modules still and perhaps a second hose or, looked at another way, 2 V3's in the same cabinet.

We have no evidence for that. They have played around with double-charging but like the pics of the megacharging port and their joining of the CharIN standards, we can't know what next year's new model will be like.

-Crissa

 

[Yakuza]

Would the new batteries degrade less than old ones? IE be able to handle a higher rate for longer. To me this is more important than peak rate—ability to sustain it longer.

 

[Crissa]

Would the new batteries degrade less than old ones?

The 4680s with the new dry process are being tested. This is probably why the 'million mile battery' was not announced, only implied, at battery day.

IE be able to handle a higher rate for longer. To me this is more important than peak rate—ability to sustain it longer.

That's actually another question entirely. There are so many features to a cell and pack's performance!

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

Degradation is one thing. Ability to take higher charging currents at higher SoC thus allowing later onset of taper is another. Taper is one of those FUD things that gets way over played. In most cases taper isn't that big a deal. Let us first assume that the CT will use today's batteries. Tesla cars with those batteries can charge at a peak rate of 250 kW from a V3 charger in some period of time, t minutes, at some desired SoC given the current taper. From a double V3 they will charge to the same SoC in t/2 minutes with the same taper.

Now let us move forward and assume that some of the battery day stuff will make it into the CT batteries. They will have lower internal impedance (tabless) and perhaps some of the new polymer antisweling protection and some of the new additives increasing the total round trip charge they can handle. They can, therefore, be charged with later taper onset and will charge even faster than t/2.