Will Lucid come out with better battery and motor tech than Tesla?

[Geo]

Here is a 1:22:30 video about Lucid

Thanks for posting the video, I didn't know they were that well rounded and comprehensive a company.

Providing gear to the entire Formula E grid is very impressive. That would be a unique and invaluable resource of experience and data.

The 17% greater energy density per given size battery than the best competitor (Tesla) is really a serious achievement.
I can't wait to see what Tesla does to respond. But hat's off to Lucid.

And now I'm wondering how the Hummer, when its revealed in about 5 -7 weeks, will measure up in certain aspects against the Cybertruck ! Rear wheel steering and crab mode will be an interesting advantage.

P.S. I noted that they are getting their factory up and producing in 8 and a bit months, that surprises me, but gives more confidence that the Cybertruck factory may be popping out Cybertruck's by July.

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[TruckElectric]

It is absolutely to be expected. Does Lucid have a motor that is "better" than Tesla's? Perhaps but what does "better" mean. Tesla's motors are 95% (?) efficient. Perhaps Lucid's are 96. Yes that is better but not much. Rawlinson brags about less cogging. Well yes, less cogging is better than more but how does this effect efficiency? Is it perhaps at the cost of efficiency? Is there more noise from cogging in a competitor's car (I can hear it in my X) than Lucid's? Does it matter?

It's not so much that Lucid's motors are more efficient as comparable to Tesla's. The efficiency comes in at having a smaller sized motor and inverter(73KG) with 670 HP. This gives Lucid the opportunity to design for more room/storage space.

 

[TruckElectric]

In a nutshell if you run 100 amperes in a 900 V circuit it will deliver 900*100 = 90000 Watts, i.e. 90 kW. If the wire has 0.1 Ω loop resistance it will dissipate 100*100*0.1 equal to 1000 W which is 1.1% of the power transmitted. This is lost to the circuit. Now if you have a 450 V system you would need 200A to get 450*200 = 90000 W transmitted. If the same wire size were used the dissipation would be 200*200*0.1 = 4 kW which is 4.4% of the power. Thus in doubling the voltage the current required to deliver a given amount of power falls in half and one one can keep the same level of loss with 1/4 the amount of copper which is expensive and heavy. In the motor it is a little different as the lower current means half the magnetic field so that the number of turns for a given flux must be doubled. The winding loss at the lower voltage is I*I*R whereas at double voltage it is (I/2)*(I/2)*2*R = I*I*R/2. Thus in the wiring from the batteries to the inverter and to the motor losses are, for the same size wire in a 2*V architecture, 1/4 what they are with V. So the manufacturer can save $ and weight by going to smaller wire. In the motor the losses are 1/2 but again there is the opportunity to save weight and money but a manufacturer may choose to spend the money and keep the weight as 1/2 the heat dissipated in the motor means less burden on the motor cooling system. In the inverters themselves the losses go down by a factor of 4. This means less burden on the inverter cooling loop.

The Formula E racing cars are 800V and since Lucid provides the batteries it makes sense that they went with 800V in their cars.

The 800V architecture also allows for fast DC charging.

What's interesting is the coming models with 800V architecture. GM EV Hummer and probably the Cadillac EV's. Kia(not sure what model), Hyundai Genesis, Porsche Taycan and Audi and since they are both owned by VW I'm sure other brands will follow, Rivian is supposed to upgrade to 800V in 2022, Mercedes-Benz is going to 800V.

I also think that the Tesla Semi will be 800V architecture, it just makes sense.

 

[TruckElectric]

Thanks for posting the video, I didn't know they were that well rounded and comprehensive a company.

Providing gear to the entire Formula E grid is very impressive. That would be a unique and invaluable resource of experience and data.

The 17% greater energy density per given size battery than the best competitor (Tesla) is really a serious achievement.
I can't wait to see what Tesla does to respond. But hat's off to Lucid.

And now I'm wondering how the Hummer, when its revealed in about 5 -7 weeks, will measure up in certain aspects against the Cybertruck ! Rear wheel steering and crab mode will be an interesting advantage.

P.S. I noted that they are getting their factory up and producing in 8 and a bit months, that surprises me, but gives more confidence that the Cybertruck factory may be popping out Cybertruck's by July.

In the video it shows that Lucid is getting into the energy storage business. They had what looked like a Tesla Powerwall and also they showed an energy storage similar to Tesla's Powerpack.

Lucid is going to be a Tesla competitor in more ways than EV auto's.

I would like to see what a Lucid truck would look like, I know it have the performance.

 

[ajdelange]

The 800V architecture also allows for fast DC charging.

An 800V 113 kWh battery has a capacity of 141.25 Ah (ampere hours). To charge it at 350 kW (the size of the largest EA chargers) would mean pushing 437.5 A onto it at 800 V. This is a charge rate of 3C (or C/.333) implying that it could be charged in .333 hr (20 min). Compare to Tesla's fastest charger which delivers 250 kW at 400 V meaning 625 A to a 90000/400 = 225 Ah battery implying a charge rate of 625/225 i.e 2.77C equivalent to C/.36 so that a Tesla V3 SC could fully charge the battery of a Y in about .36 hrs. Note that it is well known that Telsa does not maintain charge rate of 2.77C as this would be stressful to the battery at higher SoC. Charge rate is tapered as SoC increases and you would not, therefore, be able to fully charge a Y in 0.36 hr - it would take somewhat longer. Lucid, Rivian and everyone else does or will do that too. That statement will bring out of the woodwork those that argue that Tesla cheats in the way it specifies battery size (which it actually doesn't seem to do any more - the sticker on the battery pack indicates its voltage but no longer states its capacity). I hope it will suffice to note that the manufacturers have lots of wiggle room in how they specify capacity and in the taper programs they use with their individual batteries.

Thus it is apparent that the charging time depends on the size of the battery relative to the power capacity of the charger and not on the voltage of the electrical system. Where the voltage comes into the picture is in the charger itself. The Lucid battery, were it 400 V, could still be charged in 20 minutes (3C) but the charger would have to push 975 A to it. That's a lot of current just as the 625 A required for the Y is a lot of current to the point that the cables on a Gen 3 supercharger have to be liquid cooled in order to keep them of manageable size and at reasonable temperature. 437 A is quite a bit of current too even though losses go as the square of the current and so the high voltage 350 kW EA chargers use liquid cooled cables too.

Put another way, bigger batteries and shorter charging times for them both require more power of the charger. Higher voltage means that higher power can be delivered at lower current and that makes it possible for a manufacturer to build chargers at reasonable cost.

Rivian is supposed to upgrade to 800V in 2022, Mercedes-Benz is going to 800V.

Rivian will have, in the longest range configuration, a 180 kWh, 400V, 450 Ah battery. To charge that at 350 kW would require pushing 875 A into it for a charge rate of C/0.51. I believe the CCS system is limited to 500A. This would mean maximum charging rate of C/0.9 equivalent to 200 kW.

But over a year ago Rivian realized that by splitting the 180 kWh pack into two 90 kWh packs and connecting them in series they would have a 180 kWh, 800 V 225 Ah battery which could be charged at C/0.51 (350 kW) with only 437.5 A (under the limit). They filed a patent application for a switching arrangement that would allow the pack to be so configured for charging and put back to parallel connection for running and Level 2 charging. I think they might implement this but I don't think they will change over motors, inverters, onboard chargers, compressors etc to 800 V by 2022. You can bet they are thinking about this though.

I also think that the Tesla Semi will be 800V architecture, it just makes sense.

I doubt it. As is the case with Rivian they are heavily invested in 400 V motors, inverters and chargers at this point and it isn't that easy to overcome inertia. Going to an 800 V electrical system represents a tremendous investment in redesign. As is the case with Rivian, though, you can bet they are thinking about this.

Whereas Rivian has evidently decided to get faster charging by putting the battery packs in series Tesla apparently (and this is at rumor level only) in the Semi (and we hope the CT or at least the TriMotor) by paralleing chargers. We suppose the CT to have two 90 kWh battery packs connected in parallel for operation. When charging we suppose that they will be separated and each connected to its own charging port. We see mumblings that this is how the Semis will acheive faster charging i.e. by plugging in several SCs at once. Kind of a kluge it seems but I guess it will work.

 

[TruckElectric]

Whereas Rivian has evidently decided to get faster charging by putting the battery packs in series Tesla apparently (and this is at rumor level only) in the Semi (and we hope the CT or at least the TriMotor) by paralleing chargers. We suppose the CT to have two 90 kWh battery packs connected in parallel for operation. When charging we suppose that they will be separated and each connected to its own charging port. We see mumblings that this is how the Semis will acheive faster charging i.e. by plugging in several SCs at once. Kind of a kluge it seems but I guess it will work.

I do know they did have some pics of a Tesla Semi having some kind of setup to plug in 2 SC to charge the batteries. I think this is only temporary as they are supposed to be working on a Megacharger, but we won't know until something official from Tesla is released. They did have a patent recently for a cooling system.

It mentions pushing 2000 A or more! through a charging cable....yes that is 2000 Amperes.

Here is the patent:

On March 5, 2020, Tesla filed a patent for 'Liquid Cooled Charging Cable and Connector.’ The patent describes an improvement to a liquid-cooled charging cable and charger for charging of electric vehicles, including semi-tractor.

Tesla writes in its patent application:

"The advancement of electric vehicles has created an increased need for charging equipment that delivers electric power. Some such applications (eg, certain fast-charging vehicle chargers) are designed to work with continuous currents of 100 Amps or more. With the advancement of larger electric vehicles, such as semi-tractor electric vehicles, charging duties have increased.

Resultantly, charging cables may be required to service charging at 2,000 Amps or more. Higher current flow in a charging cable results in the generation of more heat, which must be removed to prevent overheating and damage to the charging cable. As a result, the conductors of the charging cables have traditionally been sized larger to match higher current draws, resulting in greater bulk, cost, and difficulty in handling."

The patent describes examples of systems and techniques for cooling charging cables. That is, the patent describes a charging system for an electric vehicle. According to the disclosure, the charging system for an electric vehicle can have a power supply, a charging cable, a connector, and a cooling system. The charging cable can have a coolant conduit routed through the charging cable. The charging cable can also have a coolant return path formed within the charging cable jacket. The cooling system can pump coolant through the coolant conduit and coolant return path to remove heat from the charging cable during charging process."

Via: TORQUE NEWS

 

[ajdelange]

I do know they did have some pics of a Tesla Semi having some kind of setup to plug in 2 SC to charge the batteries. I think this is only temporary as they are supposed to be working on a Megacharger, but we won't know until something official from Tesla is released. They did have a patent recently for a cooling system.

It mentions pushing 2000 A or more! through a charging cable....yes that is 2000 Amperes.

That suggests extension of the parallel approach rather than going to higher voltage.

Here is the patent:
...
Tesla writes in its patent application:

That looks more like an article in the popular media about a patent application than a patent. Was the patent granted? If so, please cite it.

This appears to be a "bubble gum card" patent in which the filer claims as much as he can without actually demonstrating anything or subsequently building anything. If the patent office grants a patent claiming liquid cooling of charging cables to Tesla then EA and a couple of other companies which are already using liquid cooled cables are in infringement and must either pay licensing fees to Tesla or even damages. Or Tesla can go to EA (or actually to the manufacturer of the equipment EA buys) and say "Hey, your'e infringing our liquid cooled charging cable patent. But we'll overlook that if you'll license your space vector to PWM algorithm (made that up as an example - I'm sure the chargers do use space vector control but have no idea who holds the patent(s)) to us without fee. Hence the name for this type of patent. Tesla does, of course, use liquid cooled cables in the V3s.

"The cooling system can pump coolant through the coolant conduit and coolant return path to remove heat from the charging cable during charging process."

As that is "prior art" (already used by other manufacturers and in other industries) I doubt it would be patentable. But I am not a patent lawyer by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[TruckElectric]

That looks more like an article in the popular media about a patent application than a patent. Was the patent granted? If so, please cite it.

If you looked at the date it was filed it said March 5, 2020. It takes about 21 months to get a patent approved.

The article was from Eva Fox @ Tesmanian.com which Elon Musk follows on Twitter so it's a credible source.

This appears to be a "bubble gum card" patent in which the filer claims as much as he can without actually demonstrating anything or subsequently building anything. If the patent office grants a patent claiming liquid cooling of charging cables to Tesla then EA and a couple of other companies which are already using liquid cooled cables are in infringement and must either pay licensing fees to Tesla or even damages.

Not necessarily. It's not just any cooling cable, it's a cooling cable for 2000 or more amps which EA has no such capabilities. It's kinda like a mouse trap(cooling cable), you can file for a patent for a better mouse trap(better cooling cable or one that uses 2000 A) but there are other types of mouse traps(cooling cables) so EA is obviously not using a 2000 A cable so they would not violate the patent.

It could also depend on how the cable is cooled.

 

[ajdelange]

If you looked at the date it was filed it said March 5, 2020. It takes about 21 months to get a patent approved.

So Tesla does not have a patent.

The article was from Eva Fox @ Tesmanian.com which Elon Musk follows on Twitter so it's a credible source.

You have strange critera for credibility! For all I know he probably reads the San Francisco Chronicle.

Not necessarily. It's not just any cooling cable, it's a cooling cable for 2000 or more amps which EA has no such capabilities.

In the first place, your "reliable" source did not discuss any of Tesla's claims. That's what we should be looking at. But lets suppose that one of Tesla's claims is for liquid cooling of a cable to 2000+ amps. That claim would be rejected under the prior art criterion because it it obvious (or should be) that if you can cool a cable carrying 500 A by recirculating 10 GPM water at a particular temperature through it that you can cool one carrying 2000 A by circulating 160 GPM through it and/or by lowering the temperature of the coolant. The statute requires that your claim involves something "non-obvious".

It's kinda like a mouse trap(cooling cable), you can file for a patent for a better mouse trap(better cooling cable or one that uses 2000 A) but there are other types of mouse traps(cooling cables) so EA is obviously not using a 2000 A cable so they would not violate the patent.

Huh?

If I scale up a mouse trap in size and try to patent that as a rat trap, the patent office will probably throw me out as its obvious that a mouse trap scaled up should work for rats. But the patent office has issued a lot of "junk" patents. My favorite is the laser pointer used to amuse cats.

It could also depend on how the cable is cooled.

Now that is quite a different matter. If Tesla claims an embodiment in which the coolant is circulated through, say, the insulation, or the coolant is some new solution of unobtainium hexafluoride or if the cooling is achieved by Seebeck effect or phase change .... then those indeed would represent non-obvious extensions of the prior art and would be patentable.

But I have to admit I do not understand where you are trying to go with any of this. I explained that higher voltage does not enable faster charging except in the sense that all the faster chargers use higher voltage and that, thus, a high voltage car, or one whose battery pack can be wickered into a high voltage configuration for charging, has access to those faster chargers and now we are discussing a Tesla patent application for which we don't have a list of the claims. I don't see how it relates.

 

[Crissa]

The Rivian patent is super-obvious and may cripple battery technology if they don't relinquish it. Implementation is the hard part, not the idea - people have been swapping battery configurations for charging for decades.

-Crissa

 

[Mini2nut]

I‘m impressed with the Lucid drivetrain. It’s very compact and appears to be the best electric drivetrain in the BEV market right now.

“Starting with the in-house development of the Air’s drivetrain, Lucid created a line of powerful, compact and ultra-efficient permanent magnet electric motors. Combining these motors with an inverter and an integrated transmission and differential creates an advanced 900V+ electric drive unit that weighs just 163lb (74kg) and is small enough to fit inside a standard airline carry-on roller bag.

Each drive unit packs more than 650hp, with a power density that is well beyond anything else offered on the EV market at 41hp per liter. This compactness allows for one, two, or even three units to be used to power a Lucid Air.

In total, Lucid’s drive units are 45% lighter and up to 59% more powerful than the closest competitor. For their power, the motors are two and a half times more volumetrically compact than the closest competitor. Also notable is the fact that the motors can spin up to 20,000 rpm, a significant performance advantage over the competition, the company said.

The enablers of these outstanding electric motor characteristics include a set of inventions that are part of Lucid intellectual property. Most notably, a new motor winding technology has been introduced to maximize power output and reduce electrical losses. The motor also features an innovative cooling system that more effectively removes heat from the stator winding, minimizing losses and boosting efficiency.“

 

[TruckElectric]

An 800V 113 kWh battery has a capacity of 141.25 Ah (ampere hours). To charge it at 350 kW (the size of the largest EA chargers) would mean pushing 437.5 A onto it at 800 V. This is a charge rate of 3C (or C/.333) implying that it could be charged in .333 hr (20 min). Compare to Tesla's fastest charger which delivers 250 kW at 400 V meaning 625 A to a 90000/400 = 225 Ah battery implying a charge rate of 625/225 i.e 2.77C equivalent to C/.36 so that a Tesla V3 SC could fully charge the battery of a Y in about .36 hrs. Note that it is well known that Telsa does not maintain charge rate of 2.77C as this would be stressful to the battery at higher SoC. Charge rate is tapered as SoC increases and you would not, therefore, be able to fully charge a Y in 0.36 hr - it would take somewhat longer. Lucid, Rivian and everyone else does or will do that too. That statement will bring out of the woodwork those that argue that Tesla cheats in the way it specifies battery size (which it actually doesn't seem to do any more - the sticker on the battery pack indicates its voltage but no longer states its capacity). I hope it will suffice to note that the manufacturers have lots of wiggle room in how they specify capacity and in the taper programs they use with their individual batteries.

Thus it is apparent that the charging time depends on the size of the battery relative to the power capacity of the charger and not on the voltage of the electrical system. Where the voltage comes into the picture is in the charger itself. The Lucid battery, were it 400 V, could still be charged in 20 minutes (3C) but the charger would have to push 975 A to it. That's a lot of current just as the 625 A required for the Y is a lot of current to the point that the cables on a Gen 3 supercharger have to be liquid cooled in order to keep them of manageable size and at reasonable temperature. 437 A is quite a bit of current too even though losses go as the square of the current and so the high voltage 350 kW EA chargers use liquid cooled cables too.

Put another way, bigger batteries and shorter charging times for them both require more power of the charger. Higher voltage means that higher power can be delivered at lower current and that makes it possible for a manufacturer to build chargers at reasonable cost.

In other words, 800V Architecture allows for fast DC charging.

 

[TruckElectric]

I explained that higher voltage does not enable faster charging except in the sense that all the faster chargers use higher voltage and that, thus, a high voltage car, or one whose battery pack can be wickered into a high voltage configuration for charging, has access to those faster chargers

In other words, 800V Architecture allows for fast DC charging.

 

[ajdelange]

In other words, 800V Architecture allows for fast DC charging.

Well of course it does but it isn’t necessary in order to obtain fast charging.

 

[TruckElectric]

Well of course it does but it isn’t necessary in order to obtain fast charging.

It is necessary to be safe.