Ok if GM/Ford go under?

[Wiigin]

unfortunately, I don't see ford making it another 5-7 years. they have not really done any innovations to their cash cow (F-150), although they did hit a home run with their soon to be released Bronco. Just a little too late, Cybertruck will eat their lunch next year and will be the beginning of the end for them. I think eventually they will sell off their icons, but ford will not remain. they are too in debt and burdened with pension payouts.

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[dano0726]

Ford isn't going anywhere -- the one domestic car company that will survive. It's the only other car brand I would consider (picking from F-150, Ranger, Bronco, Bronco Sport, and Raptor) that can "hang" with Tesla. And, Ford owns the U.S. fleet sales...

FCA (or whatever they're called now) only has the Jeep brand (more specifically the Wrangler) that brings in the enterprise-wide cash flows to bankroll all the other brands.

GM won't get another taxpayer-funded (and left hanging) cash infusion

 

[fritter63]

I prefer to entertain the idea of Tesla buying Ford in a fire sale and not only using its factories, but using the “model E” trademark as it should. ?

 

[Frank W]

Today Axios came out with a story:
(I vote NO to this Union)

Joe Biden’s push for clean-energy union jobs could force showdown with Elon Musk

https://apple.news/AQ-LHZTpyQMmXWiWgENqvlA

 

[Akgolf]

Today Axios came out with a story:
(I vote NO to this Union)

Joe Biden’s push for clean-energy union jobs could force showdown with Elon Musk

https://apple.news/AQ-LHZTpyQMmXWiWgENqvlA

Not a fan of UAW getting into Tesla.

 

[Crissa]

Union, yes; UAW, maybe not.

Unions need to protect their members, but they also need to not hurt others with split level contracts and lines that cut out the engineers and contractors from being considered employees.

Unions (although not their exclusivity) are good for safety.

-Crissa

 

[KendrickMB]

I like competition, so I'd prefer they don't fail. Ford definitely will not fail. The F-150 outsells everything and will continue to outsell everything for a long time. The GM twins and the Ram sell in ridiculously high numbers as well. Including their other high selling vehicles, the big three are in no risk anytime soon, even if they don't switch to EVs. On the other hand, if Ford discontinued ICE trucks and moved forward with only the electric F-150, Ford would still outsell everyone assuming compromises weren't made that ruined the truck. Ford (and I'd argue GM and FCA) is prosperously safe until the public demands EVs to the point that ICE sales are non-existent.

 

[Crissa]

Just because F150s sell doesn't mean the company won't go under. It's just one product.

-Crissa

 

[KendrickMB]

Just because F150s sell doesn't mean the company won't go under. It's just one product.

-Crissa

Why would Ford go under then? If sales aren't keeping them afloat, what is? I have no evidence, but I'd bet their service and parts are doing well in addition to sales. They also were willing to put money into Rivian.

As far as just the F-150. Ford also sells a lot of the heavy duty trucks. The Mustang is still successful. They cut sedans in favor of SUVs, one of the biggest markers for vehicles. There seems to be good reception for the Bronco and I'd guess the Mach-E will be a success for Ford as well. Where is the danger there?

 

[Crissa]

Why would Ford go under then?

Because the sales of one model isn't enough to manage their debt?

Unlike Tesla, they've not paid back the loans they took from the feds. They have alot of outstanding debt and may not be able to escape the dealer obligations.

-Crissa

 

[dano0726]

Ford's loan advance wasn't part of the TARP bailout -- and they have about $1.5B left of debt to service (after starting around $6.9B way back in 2009)

 

[Crissa]

Ford's loan advance wasn't part of the TARP bailout -- and they have about $1.5B left of debt to service (after starting around $6.9B way back in 2009)

That Ford's federal debt is from a different bill doesn't make it not part of the bailout. Why would you even make that argument? It's like saying Joe was paid on Monday instead of Friday when I said he was paid for this month.

Ford has assets to debt at 2:1 right now and their cash flow has not been consistent. So they're not likely to fail yet, but inconsistent income is a warning sign.

-Crissa

 

[Luke42]

Ford has been talking about an electric F150 for more than 5 years now.... and we still know nothing about it - I'm not holding my breath.... that's why I reserved a CT.

Here's Ford's commercial for the electric F-150:

This video is pretty little light on the technical details, and the torque characteristics they're demonstrating are typical of electric vehicles with properly designed motor controls.

But, Ford does have something to show us.

 

[Luke42]

unfortunately, I don't see ford making it another 5-7 years. they have not really done any innovations to their cash cow (F-150), although they did hit a home run with their soon to be released Bronco. Just a little too late, Cybertruck will eat their lunch next year and will be the beginning of the end for them. I think eventually they will sell off their icons, but ford will not remain. they are too in debt and burdened with pension payouts.

The Ecobost turbo engines in the F-150 were innovative for their time.

The aluminum body F-150 in 2015 was innovative, in that it trimmed 750lbs from the vehicle weight.

Ford is promising hybrid, plugin hybrid, and electric F-150s in the near future. They've already released a Ford Explorer Hybrid, which we can assume uses a similar drivetrain to the F-150 hybrid.

The F-150 is pretty innovative as pickup trucks go.

GM has done some innovative things as well. I just bought a 2-Mode GMC Sierra, because I need a pickup truck sooner than the CT will be available. This is also an innovative pickup truck (from one of the least respected automakers), and it's the first full-size pickup truck that I've actually enjoyed driving -- because the hybrid drive attenuates most of the annoyances which come with driving a conventional full-sized pickup truck.

The problem here is that pickup truck buyers are "traditional". The Ford F-150 still uses an anti-innovative locking 4x4 system on most of their trucks, which is pretty lousy in the conditions I encounter. This 4x4 system's unsuitability for the road-conditions I encounter in real life is one the main reasons I sold my F-150 a few years ago. The GM 2-Mode hybrid is a *much* better driving pickup than any other pickup truck I've ever touched, but GM's 2-Mode hybrids rare beasts and clearly didn't sell very well.

I wouldn't count the legacy automakers out just yet. They can certainly do innovative engineering, when their engineers are allowed/ordered to do so -- and the evidence of that is sitting in my driveway now. They do, however, serve "traditional" buyers and they have every reason to favor gradual evolutionary change over moonshots. Also, fast-follower strategies work in business (my employer has adapted gracefully to COVID-world and are making money because they have a fast-follower mentality), and second-mover advantage can be very potent -- because you can learn from the mistakes made by the fist-mover. Fast-follower companies can make a lot of money, even if this approach lacks Silicon Valley swagger.

I can't wait to trade my GMC Sierra in on a Tesla CT, but I expect the legacy automakers will follow (and make money) once Tesla shows them the way.

 

[ldjessee]

The Ecobost turbo engines in the F-150 were innovative for their time.

The aluminum body F-150 in 2015 was innovative, in that it trimmed 750lbs from the vehicle weight.

Ford is promising hybrid, plugin hybrid, and electric F-150s in the near future. They've already released a Ford Explorer Hybrid, which we can assume uses a similar drivetrain to the F-150 hybrid.

The F-150 is pretty innovative as pickup trucks go.

That is not even a backhanded complement... pickup trucks are not innovative, in my opinion. Everything they have was done someplace else first.

Aluminum bodies, economical engines, hybrid powertrains... nothing new at all.

Even RAMs air suspension was not new...

As an example, the first aluminum body car was... in 1899 (or is it 1901?)... over 100 years ago. How long has aircraft, Airstream trailers, and many others been made from aluminum?
Morgan Olson made delivery trucks from aluminum in the 50s...
Even Chevy switched to aluminum for their 69 StepKing delivery truck...

Sorry, but ICE pickup trucks are WAY behind, so far behind that calling them innovative seems funny to me.