Will Lucid come out with better battery and motor tech than Tesla?

[Sirfun]

Watching the Lucid unveiling in 10 mins. video filled my mind with questions. For sure the price tag is way beyond a Tesla, but their specs. make me wonder. Has someone caught and passed Tesla with technology right out of the starting gate? Of course the comparison is to Tesla's current tech. but still it's interesting and makes you think these are some of the directions Tesla could be going even as soon as Sept. 22 on Battery day.
Here's a photo with their bragging specs.

Interesting, a 1080hp vehicle with 517 miles of range out of a 113kwh Pack. That's over 100 extra miles of range with only 13 more kwh pack then the Model S.

Their motor is way more compact and lighter with more HP. Here's their comparison (note they don't name any names just country of origin).

The other area that really grabbed my interest was charging capability. It can send energy back to the house through the charger plus it can do Vehicle to vehicle.

So, how about it boys and girls. What's your thoughts?
BTW, here's the video:

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[android04]

I was impressed by what I saw in regards to their motors. The motors they compared to are obviously Porsche Taycan, Model 3, and Model S motors. If there are no drawbacks to their motor (like durability or cooling) then hopefully Tesla can eventually match or beat their technology.

 

[Friday]

Huge new building exists.

 

[ajdelange]

Has someone caught and passed Tesla with technology right out of the starting gate?

So, how about it boys and girls. What's your thoughts?

Well they aren't actually out of the starting gate, are they? But if they deliver all they promise, yes they will have passed Tesla in certain areas. They use a bigger battery. Even their president refers to that as "dumb range". Tesla could obviously add a bigger battery too. Do Lucids batteries cost less/kWh than Teslas? Do they have higher specific energy? Who knows. Possibly. Do they come at higher specific energy and/or at lower cost that what Tesla will talk about on the 22nd? No idea. But keep in mind that the Tesla new stuff isn't out of the gate either.

Where they clearly top Tesla, IMO, is with the 800 V architecture. There are clear advantages to doing that (less I^2R loss for the same amount of copper) but clearly there are costs too (higher PIV tolerance in semiconductors, more insulation). They brag about low Cd but that is meaningless unless frontal area is at or below that of the competitions'. They brag about silicon carbide FETs but I think everyone uses SiC these days (or will soon).

These companies all know what Tesla is doing and are able to identify areas for improvement and work towards solving the existing problems. As motor and electronics (power) efficiencies are so high there isn't much room for improvement there. The obvious fertile ground is the battery.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

Out of the gate? Really? Lucid started in 2007. They have had 13 years to tweak and refine their body design. They have also been supplying the electric motors for Formula E racers, giving them a way enhance efficiency as well as getting much needed cash. Had a middle eastern financier not supplied them with much needed cash they would have died. Nothing wrong with an angel investor, just stating the facts.


The Lucid vehicle is going after the Porsche Taycan crowd. Those well-heeled folks will take plenty of ICE super cars off the highways. It is not going to take your Taurus, Camry, Mustang or F150 off the road. Tesla will do that.

And don’t forget, they say it is 517 miles range. It hasn’t been EPA verified as the 3, X, Y, and S have been. Competition is good. If it makes Tesla a little jealous and nervous so that they trim designs and improve efficiencies, FABULOUS!

 

[Sirfun]

Well they aren't actually out of the starting gate, are they? But if they deliver all they promise, yes they will have passed Tesla in certain areas. They use a bigger battery. Even their president refers to that as "dumb range". Tesla could obviously add a bigger battery too. Do Lucids batteries cost less/kWh than Teslas? Do they have higher specific energy? Who knows. Possibly. Do they come at higher specific energy and/or at lower cost that what Tesla will talk about on the 22nd? No idea. But keep in mind that the Tesla new stuff isn't out of the gate either.

First off let me start off that I'm not interested in Lucid to buy, or being a fan boy. I've just been watching lots of videos bragging about Tesla having a moat based on Tesla tech being so far ahead that nobody can catch them. This is mostly referring to all the existing car manufacturers. Then I saw this video, and it really made me wonder about the that. I have very little knowledge on EV's and that's why I posted this, to get some rebuttals.
The reason I said, "right out of the starting gate", is because I'm shocked that a company that has yet to ship vehicles is challenging Tesla's superiority in motors and batteries.
If you go to 3:45 in the reveal video I posted, Rawlinson says the car has been independently validated with the range of over 500 miles as an EPA estimate. Then he says they're range isn't dumb range with a large battery. So when I looked at that (as a total novice) I see 500 is 100 over 400 = 25% more range, with 13 kwh more than Tesla's 100kwh pack= 13% with more HP. As a gas person that sounds like a win. Also, I am probably wrong but I think they said their using 900v architecture. I really don't know the significance.
But now that I have your interest, what do you think of their bi-directional claims? I really hope the Cybertruck has that functionality. For blackouts and if your offroad with a group of Cybertrucks it could be huge.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

This is mostly referring to all the existing car manufacturers. Also, I am probably wrong but I think they said their using 900v architecture. I really don't know the significance.
But now that I have your interest, what do you think of their bi-directional claims? I really hope the Cybertruck has that functionality. For blackouts and if your offroad with a group of Cybertrucks it could be huge.

I have little doubt of their claims for anything. Trust, but verify. They may have had an independent test of 517 miles. Until the EPA tests, it isn’t fact. As I said before, this isn’t done by some group of Joe’s working in their garage who came up with the better mousetrap because they were stuck at home on COVID lockdown. This is a company that has had greater than a billion and a half dollars plus investment over 13 years. They are smart people who have good ideas and have had the time and benefit to be working out of the spotlight to solve problems like V2V and V2G, aerodynamics, efficient motors, etc. Bravo! Keep up the good work. Now make those guys at Tesla envious and redefine their motors and systems to be better.

I have no clue what the 900v architecture means. Waiting for one of you smart E. Engineers to clarify.

Lucid is not a threat to Tesla just as Maserati is no threat to Kia. Apples and oranges. I love what Lucid is doing, just like I enjoy a Maserati. Neither are in my price range.

 

[Sirfun]

I have little doubt of their claims for anything. Trust, but verify. They may have had an independent test of 517 miles. Until the EPA tests, it isn’t fact. As I said before, this isn’t done by some group of Joe’s working in their garage who came up with the better mousetrap because they were stuck at home on COVID lockdown. This is a company that has had greater than a billion and a half dollars plus investment over 13 years. They are smart people who have good ideas and have had the time and benefit to be working out of the spotlight to solve problems like V2V and V2G, aerodynamics, efficient motors, etc. Bravo! Keep up the good work. Now make those guys at Tesla envious and redefine their motors and systems to be better.

I have no clue what the 900v architecture means. Waiting for one of you smart E. Engineers to clarify.

Lucid is not a threat to Tesla just as Maserati is no threat to Kia. Apples and oranges. I love what Lucid is doing, just like I enjoy a Maserati. Neither are in my price range.

Yeah that is interesting that they made Formula E motors. And they have the backing from the Saudi's. I could definitely see Lucid selling cars in the Middle East. Fast luxurious cars are a big hit over there. Lot's of images with private jets in the background tells me who they're marketing. It sure as heck ain't me. However I agree completely with you. Go get um Tesla! We want V2V & at least V2H.

 

[hobbit11]

Watching the Lucid unveiling in 10 mins. video filled my mind with questions. For sure the price tag is way beyond a Tesla, but their specs. make me wonder. Has someone caught and passed Tesla with technology right out of the starting gate? Of course the comparison is to Tesla's current tech. but still it's interesting and makes you think these are some of the directions Tesla could be going even as soon as Sept. 22 on Battery day.
Here's a photo with their bragging specs.

Interesting, a 1080hp vehicle with 517 miles of range out of a 113kwh Pack. That's over 100 extra miles of range with only 13 more kwh pack then the Model S.

Their motor is way more compact and lighter with more HP. Here's their comparison (note they don't name any names just country of origin).

The other area that really grabbed my interest was charging capability. It can send energy back to the house through the charger plus it can do Vehicle to vehicle.

So, how about it boys and girls. What's your thoughts?
BTW, here's the video:

The CT NEEDS to have bi-directional capability. I know that conflicts with the Tesla Wall product but the change is EXTREMELY cheap from a manufacturing perspective.

 

[hobbit11]

First off let me start off that I'm not interested in Lucid to buy, or being a fan boy. I've just been watching lots of videos bragging about Tesla having a moat based on Tesla tech being so far ahead that nobody can catch them. This is mostly referring to all the existing car manufacturers. Then I saw this video, and it really made me wonder about the that. I have very little knowledge on EV's and that's why I posted this, to get some rebuttals.
The reason I said, "right out of the starting gate", is because I'm shocked that a company that has yet to ship vehicles is challenging Tesla's superiority in motors and batteries.
If you go to 3:45 in the reveal video I posted, Rawlinson says the car has been independently validated with the range of over 500 miles as an EPA estimate. Then he says they're range isn't dumb range with a large battery. So when I looked at that (as a total novice) I see 500 is 100 over 400 = 25% more range, with 13 kwh more than Tesla's 100kwh pack= 13% with more HP. As a gas person that sounds like a win. Also, I am probably wrong but I think they said their using 900v architecture. I really don't know the significance.
But now that I have your interest, what do you think of their bi-directional claims? I really hope the Cybertruck has that functionality. For blackouts and if your offroad with a group of Cybertrucks it could be huge.

NEED THAT BI-DIRECTIONAL CAPABILITY!!! hurricanes visit New Orleans on a fairly regular basis in addition to the grid that the local utility provider uses is dogshit...

 

[Geo]

The Lucid's 517 mile range is verified.
Note there has also been a road test where a Porsche and a Tesla Model S along with the Lucid went on a road trip and from memory,
Porsche died at about 230 miles, Tesla about 360 miles, and Lucid about 450 miles.

Lucid's range is about 13.8% more efficient that the current Model S with 402 mile range

Thats why I expect (hope) on Battery Day, Tesla announce about 5% more efficiency, meaning,
402 mile range grows to 422 miles and a 10% bigger battery means 464 mile range with 110 kwh.

Panasonic has recently forecast 40% greater energy density in 5 years.
Elon' has forecast about 50% greater energy density (than current ~265 wh/kg) in 4 or 5 years.

And I know at least 2 very large ICE manufactures who will definitely surpass Tesla's current battery energy density.
And or the possibility Tesla and the others will source from the same supplier !

P.S. Thats why I believe its quite possible the Cybertruck may actually come with a 700 mile range when it arrives.

 

[CyberMoose]

The Lucid's 517 mile range is verified.
Note there has also been a road test where a Porsche and a Tesla Model S along with the Lucid went on a road trip and the, from memory,
Porsche died at about 230 miles, Tesla about 360 miles, and Lucid about 450 miles.

Lucid's range is about 13.8% more efficient that the current Model S with 402 mile range

That why expect (hope) on Battery Day, Tesla announce about 5% more efficiency, meaning,
402 mile range grows to 422 miles and a 10% bigger battery means 464 mile range with 110 kwh.

Panasonic has recently forecast 40% greater energy density in 5 years.
Elon' has forecast about 50% greater energy density (than current ~265 wh/kg) in 4 or 5 years.

And I know at least 2 very large ICE manufactures who will definitely surpass Tesla's current battery energy density.
And or the possibility Tesla and the others will source from the same supplier !

P.S. Thats why I believe its quite possible the Cybertruck may actually come with a 700 mile range when it arrives.

It's hard to say where Tesla will be with their battery technology. I have faith that they will excel and give us either the best range on the market or close to it. Lucid might seem like they are pulling away but we are still waiting on battery day, the 500m+ (emphasis on the +) Cybertruck, the plaid Model S, and of course the 620m roadster.

Another thing that Lucid has going for it is a high price, they aren't targetting the same markets that Tesla is going for and because of that they can add a little more without worrying about the cost. Tesla is a really great price for everything that is offered, but Lucid can toss whatever they want in their cars and increase the price because the people that are selling to won't care as much as someone buying a base model 3 with no options because it's a great family car and affordable.

We also have to wait until Lucid is on the road to make real comparisons. Lucid is claiming more range than Tesla and Mercedes is claiming they have level 3 self driving, but until they are on the road with more range or level 3, it's hard to say they are ahead of Tesla because Tesla has been known to be competitive, and Tesla still has battery day and many months to bring what they have to the table.

 

[ajdelange]

I've just been watching lots of videos bragging about Tesla having a moat based on Tesla tech being so far ahead that nobody can catch them. This is mostly referring to all the existing car manufacturers. Then I saw this video, and it really made me wonder about the that.

Tesla is way out front for the moment. It is selling cars that outperform any of the competition at prices that have come down out of the stratosphere. But as has been said many times before one should not be judging in terms relevant to the auto industry but rather the high tech sector. Dramatic leads do not long persist in this sector. Ways to push the envelope are constantly sought and continuously found with competitors continually leapfrogging one another.

The reason I said, "right out of the starting gate", is because I'm shocked that a company that has yet to ship vehicles is challenging Tesla's superiority in motors and batteries.

It is absolutely to be expected. Does Lucid have a motor that is "better" than Tesla's? Perhaps but what does "better" mean. Tesla's motors are 95% (?) efficient. Perhaps Lucid's are 96. Yes that is better but not much. Rawlinson brags about less cogging. Well yes, less cogging is better than more but how does this effect efficiency? Is it perhaps at the cost of efficiency? Is there more noise from cogging in a competitor's car (I can hear it in my X) than Lucid's? Does it matter?

If you go to 3:45 in the reveal video I posted, Rawlinson says the car has been independently validated with the range of over 500 miles as an EPA estimate.

Lucid took their prototype to a company with a dynamometer, gave them some drag and inertial coefficients, had them program those into the machine and had them run the EPA protocol. They came up with 517. That is an estimate of what their EPA rating will be and not, probably, a bad one. I don't doubt that their production cars will achieve an EPA rating of a bit over 500. But note that the car does NOT have an EPA range of 517 miles. The EPA was not, AFAIK, present to monitor this test nor have they, AFAIK, approved the drag or inertial coefficient set nor the final "fudge factors" that determine EPA range.

Then he says they're range isn't dumb range with a large battery. So when I looked at that (as a total novice) I see 500 is 100 over 400 = 25% more range, with 13 kwh more than Tesla's 100kwh pack= 13% with more HP.

Then 13 of the 25%, a bit more than half or the extra range is indeed "dumb range". The other 12% is "smart" range. Where does it come from? They didn't get a 12% improvement over Tesla in better motor efficiency because that would make their motors "over unity" (more than 100% efficient) and the same goes for inverter technology.

Also, I am probably wrong but I think they said their using 900v architecture.

Yes, they did. Now that should lead to some additional improvement in drive train efficiencies. But as there only a few percent to be gained here then we can only assign perhaps 2-3% to that leaving 9 - 10% to be explained otherwise. Obviously, most of these come from the relative drag and inertial loads. According to one website:

"[The Air's] width is around 35 to 40 millimeters narrower, height is about 30 millimeters lower and length is probably only about five to ten millimeters shorter." than an S. Rawlinson brags about a low Cd (and he has every right to). Putting these together means that the Lucid would have
0.21* (77.3*2.54 - 4)*(56.9*2.54 - 3)/(0.23* (77.3*2.54 )*(56.9*2.54 )) = 0.875876 drag relative to a Model S that is, drag is 12% less. That does not explain all the unaccounted for extra range as drag is only part of the load with, of course, it becoming very important if driving at high uniform speed. If much of the highly publicized LAX to SFO run was done on the interstate it could explain a substantial chunk of the Lucid's advantage over the S.

The other major part of the load is inertial, both translational and rotational. I mention the later as Rawlinson specifically mentions it WRT the motor and transmission. A car that is dimensionally smaller by 5% would be, cetris paribus, 14% lighter but I have no idea how paribus the ceteris is. Suffice it to say that a great way to increase range in the lower speed regimes (which are an important part of the EPA protocol) where the inertial load assumes greater importance. Again we can't say that 14% less inertia would explain all the observed differences.

As a gas person that sounds like a win.

Well as I get older I get gassier too but that aside there are a couple of wins on the Lucid side of the ledger at this point. The electrical system at 900 V might be a percent or two more efficient, the low inertia rotors in the motors might add a fraction of a percent to efficiency but the big win here would be the 9% reduction in the drag coefficient. Range garnered by increasing the battery and making a smaller car is indeed "dumb" range.

But now that I have your interest, what do you think of their bi-directional claims?

A resounding "Meh". It's not something I would ever use.

I really hope the Cybertruck has that functionality. For blackouts and if your offroad with a group of Cybertrucks it could be huge.

Keeping in mind that bidirectionality can mean a couple of different things the CT does have it in the sense that there will be 240 VAC available in the bed of the truck and apparently it will be pretty hefty. This would allow you to power your house with it via an appropriately connected transfer switch and charge another CT from it by means of the UMC plugged into it. I don't know what bi-directional means in the Lucid. The CT will be able to interface to one's house via AC if the mains are disconnected. It could not be used for V2G. And its ability to interface to another CT (or BEV of any description really) is limited to AC. The other way to use "bidirectionality" is by direct connection of the battery in one vehicle to the battery in another or to an interface box in the house which contains the inverter which, with proper software could interface with the grid.

 

[ajdelange]

I have no clue what the 900v architecture means. Waiting for one of you smart E. Engineers to clarify.

In a nutshell if you run 100 amperes in a 900 V circuit it will deliver 900*100 = 90000 Watts, i.e. 90 kW. If the wire has 0.1 Ω loop resistance it will dissipate 100*100*0.1 equal to 1000 W which is 1.1% of the power transmitted. This is lost to the circuit. Now if you have a 450 V system you would need 200A to get 450*200 = 90000 W transmitted. If the same wire size were used the dissipation would be 200*200*0.1 = 4 kW which is 4.4% of the power. Thus in doubling the voltage the current required to deliver a given amount of power falls in half and one one can keep the same level of loss with 1/4 the amount of copper which is expensive and heavy. In the motor it is a little different as the lower current means half the magnetic field so that the number of turns for a given flux must be doubled. The winding loss at the lower voltage is I*I*R whereas at double voltage it is (I/2)*(I/2)*2*R = I*I*R/2. Thus in the wiring from the batteries to the inverter and to the motor losses are, for the same size wire in a 2*V architecture, 1/4 what they are with V. So the manufacturer can save $ and weight by going to smaller wire. In the motor the losses are 1/2 but again there is the opportunity to save weight and money but a manufacturer may choose to spend the money and keep the weight as 1/2 the heat dissipated in the motor means less burden on the motor cooling system. In the inverters themselves the losses go down by a factor of 4. This means less burden on the inverter cooling loop.

 

[Ehninger1212]

All i am see from my perspective is healthy competition. Although, LUCID is significantly more expensive than Tesla.