Tesla Quality

[ajdelange]

You are certainly right about number of parts and system complexity but we were talking about reliability.

And we still are. If the probability of motor failure is 1% then the probability you will experience a motor failure in the single motor CT is 1%. The probability of a motor failure in the dual is 1.99% and in the triple it is 2.97%. The TriMotor is nearly three times more likely to present you with a motor failure and is thus less reliable (of course we expect that p << 1 %). The other side of the coin is that the probabilities of total motor failure are, respectively, 1%, 0 .01% af 0.0001% for the three models.

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[Frank W]

No trolling I too have a RN # but this article is what I am referring to https://www.consumerreports.org/car...es-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ as well as this showing 23rd on listhttps://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-3-model-s-recommended-reliability/
I would much rather have the Tesla topping the list for it would make my purchase decision much easier.

That is a old article. Logging in to Consumers Report the Model 3 has a recommended score of 80 and the Model S is 83. Customer satisfaction is always tough because you simply cannot please everyone and a handful of people complained.

 

[Garden_Aum]

The more parts there are in something the higher the probability of failure. The ICE vehicle is more prone to failure than the the BEV because it has lots more parts. But the hybrid has all the parts of an ICE vehicle AND all the parts of a BEV AND the complicated sun/planet gearing that connects all the bits. Yet they don't seem to be less reliable.

Manufacturing has proved it can produce complex vehicles with few failures. Unfortunately, the pure ICE and the hybrids require a lot of maintenance to keep them performing flawlessly. I drive around 25K per year and as a result have to get my car services every couple of months. I believe the service interval for the BEV is less often and complex. Yes, we will need to have fluids and filters (air) changed, but it will not be every 10K miles.

 

[OOHMMM]

I bought an immaculate 2013 Model S six months ago with 33k miles on it, and am overall very happy with it. My Range Rover HSE certainly has better coachwork and finish, and it's true that on some of the early cars the alignment of body panels, such as the hatchback door on mine, is not as precise as the later built models. So, I think Tesla has been tightening the tolerances as they build more of each model. My CT number put's me around 444k on the list, and I'm happy not to be in the top 100k. As other's have said, they drive like warp-speed spaceships, and it's difficult to gripe when your grinnin'! I was also impressed to be given Uber credits sufficient to get a ride home and back to the Tesla service location, and the minor work needed was done well.

 

[bfdog]

And we still are. If the probability of motor failure is 1% then the probability you will experience a motor failure in the single motor CT is 1%. The probability of a motor failure in the dual is 1.99% and in the triple it is 2.97%. The TriMotor is nearly three times more likely to present you with a motor failure and is thus less reliable (of course we expect that p << 1 %). The other side of the coin is that the probabilities of total motor failure are, respectively, 1%, 0 .01% af 0.0001% for the three models.

Pointless, fuzzy math. Apparently assumes a common cause (or condition) couldn't/wouldn't cause multiple motor failures (despite that all three motors are rolling around in the same truck). (When the bearing on one side of my F250 went out I was pretty sure the other side exposed to mostly the same conditions was likely to fail). Apparently assumes somebody will still drive around with one motor failure waiting on another. I really don't get why Tesla quality discussions turn into statistic discussions. Or why every discussion turns into math. (Like Mr. Delange) I have an electrical engineering degree and law degree and I don't convert everything into a math or legal discussion thank God. Free country though.

I see fit and finish "problems" on Teslas. They bother me until I think about whether tolerance between body panels really matter. I know machined parts are made to tolerance--that's really all that should matter. But it would be nice if the lines were consistent. I certainly don't want any rattles. I test drove a Nissan XD the week they came out (was going to buy one). The hood shimmied on the interstate on smooth road because they metal was so thin. Unacceptable.

 

[ajdelange]

Pointless, fuzzy math.

No, no. This isn't fuzzy math. Fuzzy math is doubtless used in the autopilot, HVAC system etc. but this is simple probability using sharp math. And hardly pointless as such calculations are extremely useful to those who know how to interpret them such as the manufacturers of complex systems like cars and savvy buyers.

Apparently assumes a common cause (or condition) couldn't/wouldn't cause multiple motor failures (despite that all three motors are rolling around in the same truck).

Obviously. Were the failures of components completely correlated the probability of a system failure would be that of the least reliable component. If the correlation coefficient is less than 1 but greater than 0 then the probability of failure is increased over what it would be if independent and this can be dealt with if necessary but it complicates the math lots and so for first blush analysis and for teaching the independent assumption is always used.

(When the bearing on one side of my F250 went out I was pretty sure the other side exposed to mostly the same conditions was likely to fail).

Both failed at the same time?

Apparently assumes somebody will still drive around with one motor failure waiting on another.

Yes, absolutely. Actually first question I asked when I looked at Tesla for the first time was "What do I do if I'm going down the freeway and a motor fails?" The answer was "Drive to the nearest service center on the other". There are, of course, other reasons for having the second motor but this is definitely an advantage. But to try to tie it to motors only misses the point. The more components you have in a system the higher the probability of failure and it is, thus, important to use high reliability components and to design in redundancy, fault detection....'

I really don't get why Tesla quality discussions turn into statistic discussions.

That speaks volumes. It is akin to saying you don't understand why infectious disease medicine are so hung up on bacteria and viruses.

Or why every discussion turns into math.

The "ility" sciences attempt to quantify the uncertainties associated with systems and indeed life in general. The world is not ruled by certainty and that makes navigating it difficult. And ultimately society needs to quantify everything. How many will die from the corona virus? How many test kits will we need? How many motor assemblies do we need to stock at each Service Center? How many CT can we sell in Denmark?

I have an electrical engineering degree

How did you dodge probability theory?


I need to add that the advice about using the second motor to drive to an SC is not, IMO, good advice if it is true that dinghy towing a Tesla is a bad idea because of strain on the drive train. Better advice would be to use the remaining motor to drive to the side of the road and call roadside assistance.

 

[Nolacyber]

No trolling I too have a RN # but this article is what I am referring to https://www.consumerreports.org/car...es-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ as well as this showing 23rd on listhttps://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-3-model-s-recommended-reliability/
I would much rather have the Tesla topping the list for it would make my purchase decision much easier.

I imagine when you’ve built a million vehicles statistically there are going to be some that are less than perfect, but I’ve owned an S since 2014 and it’s been amazing in every respect - including service, first mobile and then when the service Center opened in New Orleans.

 

[Skidmarks68]

Like I said before I haven't been driving Toyota's because they are the most "fun to drive" or because it "puts a smile on my face". Its about quality and reliability for me. I just want something that works. These other reasons would make the experience better for sure, without having a real bearing on quality. I am however glad and encouraged to see the latest information and research is showing improvements in Tesla quality. I think many of us will be watching the roll out of the Y model and its initial reviews.
I can definitely respect the sense of loyalty for Tesla I get from many who have commented. Thanks for your input.

 

[Delusional]

It is incredibly difficult to start a new company selling vehicles. When was the last time it was successfully done in the US, before Tesla? Pre WWII?
Now add three entirely new technologies to the mix, with batteries, efficient electric motors, and computer self driving.
Next this new company pumps up the volume by manufacturing the cars in "production hell". It was a little too fast, a little too soon.

Toss in a customer base that is extremely picky. Example from the post above... "I would much rather have the Tesla topping the list." (I will concede that they did pay a premium price over ICE vehicles and have a right to complain about issues.)
Another ingredient is a media environment that magnifies any and all issues out of all relative proportion, especially when compared to the lack of scrutiny ICE vehicles enjoy.

The entirely predictable result of that recipe is a consumer magazine headline, " It's Off Our Top Ten List" But in the article it says "Early Model 3 vehicles often featured paint or body panel issues.", which isn't exactly "the wheels fell off".
Give Elon a break, It's still above Volkswagen and Cheverolet ratings.

Thomas Ulbrich, the Volkswagen board member for electromobility said on Thursday. “Tesla is an impressive manufacturer,”...“It is a motivator for us. Tesla has 10 years more experience. But we are very quick in catching up.”

I'd say it's more like...
In five years Volkswagen's technology might be equivalent to Tesla's technology today.
On build quality today, they are also lagging Tesla, according to Consumer Reports.

If ICE manufacturers are able to match Tesla's tech more quickly, I would bet that they actually use Tesla's tech. Tesla has repeatedly stated that they will not attempt to prosecute those who use Tesla's patents. Elon meant it when he said his mission was to accelerate the world's transition away from fossil fuels.
To me, that is the biggest selling point. He had me right there.
That, and the F150 I drive every day loaded with 1500 pounds of equipment, averages 8.6 MPG in city driving.


(small article, i already told you most of it, not really worth the click,) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-10-year-start-in-electric-cars-idUSKBN20Z2Y9

 

[Frank W]

It is incredibly difficult to start a new company selling vehicles. When was the last time it was successfully done in the US, before Tesla? Pre WWII?
Now add three entirely new technologies to the mix, with batteries, efficient electric motors, and computer self driving.
Now this new company pumps up the volume by manufacturing the cars in "production hell". It was probably a little too fast, a little too soon.

Toss in a customer base that is extremely picky. Example from the post above... "I would much rather have the Tesla topping the list." (I will concede that they did pay a premium price over ICE vehicles and have a right to complain about issues.)
Another ingredient is a media environment that magnifies any and all issues out of all relative proportion, especially when compared to the lack of scrutiny ICE vehicles enjoy.

The entirely predictable result of that recipe is a consumer magazine headline, " It's Off Our Top Ten List" But in the article it says "Early Model 3 vehicles often featured paint or body panel issues.", which isn't exactly "the wheels fell off".
Give Elon a break, It's still above Volkswagen and Cheverolet ratings.

Thomas Ulbrich, the Volkswagen board member for electromobility said on Thursday. “Tesla is an impressive manufacturer,”...“It is a motivator for us. Tesla has 10 years more experience. But we are very quick in catching up.”

I'd say it's more like...
In five years Volkswagen's technology might be equivalent to Tesla's technology today.
On build quality today, they are also lagging Tesla, according to Consumer Reports.

If ICE manufacturers are able to match Tesla's tech more quickly, I would bet that they actually use Tesla's tech. Tesla has repeatedly stated that they will not attempt to prosecute those who use Tesla's patents. Elon meant it when he said his mission was to accelerate the world's transition away from fossil fuels.
To me, that is the biggest selling point. He had me right there.
That, and the F150 I drive every day loaded with 1500 pounds of equipment, averages 8.6 MPG in city driving.


(small article, i already told you most of it, not really worth the click,) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-10-year-start-in-electric-cars-idUSKBN20Z2Y9

I would like to add also that part of the problem according to Elon was the fact that they took the company public and then had to answer to the investors which put a lot of pressure on them to produce and become profitable. That’s especially hard to do when you are trying to build out a brand new company with so many different technologies involved. That info was in the book about him.
What I love about Tesla is they are constantly trying to improve the entire experience as well as their vehicles. The other companies seemed like they are just throwing electric into a ice vehicle without attempting to make it any more efficient. Once Tesla creates something new they go ahead and start putting it in the vehicles quickly without waiting until the next model year. Tesla also updates the software without trying to charge you every step of the way (like Toyota is doing right now for a sibling). Pay for a navigation update?! That makes no sense to me personally.

 

[AlexD]

I just took delivery of my Model 3 last friday (Friday 13th!)
I have read negative reports about Tesla quality so I was somewhat apprehensive. I am very happy to report zero defects.
Panel gaps are very good and paintwork ( pearl white) is flawless. If I were extremely picky I could slightly fault some panel alignment.
I should point out that I am a classic car enthusiast and have judged classic car concourses on a national and international level so I know exactly how to “do picky”!
This cars build quality compares favorably with the top German brands.
I am extremely pleasantly surprised. Bravo Tesla.

 

[Frank W]

I just took delivery of my Model 3 last friday (Friday 13th!)
I have read negative reports about Tesla quality so I was somewhat apprehensive. I am very happy to report zero defects.
Panel gaps are very good and paintwork ( pearl white) is flawless. If I were extremely picky I could slightly fault some panel alignment.
I should point out that I am a classic car enthusiast and have judged classic car concourses on a national and international level so I know exactly how to “do picky”!
This cars build quality compares favorably with the top German brands.
I am extremely pleasantly surprised. Bravo Tesla.

Pearl White is a beautiful thing!

 

[Irish Jim]

Quality is a key element, but safety is primary. My college age daughter came home for the Christmas holidays and told me to order a Cybertruck on the expectation it would be safer than my Suburban. I ordered one.

 

[Cyberchief]

So while I wait for my Cyber truck to be produced as most of you are, I have been researching all things Tesla, as this is the first interest I have ever had in the company. I have learned a lot of good things about the previous models but I am also getting primarily negative stories and media about the vehicles quality. I am very concerned about vehicle quality and reliability. Currently Consumer Reports will not even recommend purchasing any Tesla model due to its quality. I have read reports from Bloomberg claiming that customer complaints are 101 for every 100 cars sold. While they did say that drivers rate the driving experience 4.79 out of 5, I personally feel there must be a balance between quality and drive ability.
If anyone has links to articles or research showing better results please share as I could use some positive news.

I have a 2016 model S and I love it the fit and finish is incredible. The performance is unlike any car of its size. My son, two neighbors have Tesla and I haven't heard any complaints. I look forward to my Cyberturck

 

[Cyberchief]

I have a 2016 model S is is incredible. The fit and finish is top notch. Performance is off the chart not much out there that can keep up with it. I have only had warranty work completed (airbag replacement ) in my driveway. My son and two neighbors have Tesla's and we all love them