New Battery Range & Pack Architecture [Announced at Battery Day]

[Crissa]

But then why do they say the 4680 has 5X the energy when it is 5.75 larger in volume. The energy density is slightly lower than the 2170 cells. That 54% increase is likely not from the 4680 cells, but rather their goal to reach eventually.

Because batteries have:

How much power you can draw at once (in amps)
How much energy capacity (watt-hours)
How fast they can absorb power (called C, also in watts or amps)
The optimal draw curve, the number of cycles, etc, etc.

They all do have different things they do. This does a bunch of things better, and they project, cheaper.

If they can sink these into a cradle in the frame - that's sort of what they do on e-bikes - that's also more density.

This is all the awesome.

-Crissa

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[Jhodgesatmb]

I personally think over 50% range increase is over inflated. Probably more like 35%.

They very clearly said 54% overall range improvement as @Hoppi shared, but that includes all of the improvements they presented, some of which, as was also noted, could apply to different battery chemistries, etc. What they didn't say was whether any of this would apply to the CT.

I know that I am being selfish and not looking at the 'save humanity' big picture enough (because I do believe that is what we should all want), but I was hoping to get something out of the news and it isn't at all clear whether there was anything in the news that will positively affect the CT.

Elon Musk said back in January that we would be wowed by the news, and range improvements, if they applied to the CT, would be one aspect of wowing me for sure, but I had other wishes that weren't even verbalized during the presentation or Q/A, let alone for the CT:

- will the CT use the new batteries?
- charge voltages and rates (with less temperature sensitivity could batteries charge faster?)
- battery longevity (they said nothing of the number of charge cycles the new batteries will support; at 500 miles full charge 2,500 cycles would be required for a 1.25 million mile battery)
- chargers for CT
- charge range (currently 20-80, could it be better with less concern over temperature, maybe 10-90?)

So I am certainly happy for Tesla and humanity, and for future Tesla vehicle owners, but I am not wowed in terms of my own vehicle.

 

[Dids]

But then why do they say the 4680 has 5X the energy when it is 5.75 larger in volume. The energy density is slightly lower than the 2170 cells. That 54% increase is likely not from the 4680 cells, but rather their goal to reach eventually.

They said that slot of the energy density increases come from using silicone anode. The 5x is not because the cell is larger. A 2170 cell with the new tech would also have a 5x increase

They very clearly said 54% overall range improvement as @Hoppi shared, but that includes all of the improvements they presented, some of which, as was also noted, could apply to different battery chemistries, etc. What they didn't say was whether any of this would apply to the CT.

I know that I am being selfish and not looking at the 'save humanity' big picture enough (because I do believe that is what we should all want), but I was hoping to get something out of the news and it isn't at all clear whether there was anything in the news that will positively affect the CT.

Elon Musk said back in January that we would be wowed by the news, and range improvements, if they applied to the CT, would be one aspect of wowing me for sure, but I had other wishes that weren't even verbalized during the presentation or Q/A, let alone for the CT:

- will the CT use the new batteries?
- charge voltages and rates (with less temperature sensitivity could batteries charge faster?)
- battery longevity (they said nothing of the number of charge cycles the new batteries will support; at 500 miles full charge 2,500 cycles would be required for a 1.25 million mile battery)
- chargers for CT
- charge range (currently 20-80, could it be better with less concern over temperature, maybe 10-90?)

So I am certainly happy for Tesla and humanity, and for future Tesla vehicle owners, but I am not wowed in terms of my own vehicle.

Yes they said CT would be using the new batteries particularly benefiting from nickel cathode. Does that mean all CT will have them from the start? They didn't say. But once the start producing the new tech why wouldn't they put if in CT? Elon did say the tech is not ready...

 

[Dave.Me]

I live in the northern states and -30 happens almost never. Now Canada might be more often but it's certainly not a normal temperature. But I suppose you mean celsius and not fahrenheit.

Yes, I should have clarified that, my mistake. But the colder weather does eat away at the range & why I like the idea of having as large a buffer as possible. A bit of range anxiety I suppose. Am hoping that when the final purchase goes in, there might be an extended range option for the dual motor. Probably be too costly. Like someone posted, they drive you to the higher model by offering better range. If I had the cash, I'd of ordered the tri motor.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

They said that slot of the energy density increases come from using silicone anode. The 5x is not because the cell is larger. A 2170 cell with the new tech would also have a 5x increase

Yes they said CT would be using the new batteries particularly benefiting from nickel cathode. Does that mean all CT will have them from the start? They didn't say. But once the start producing the new tech why wouldn't they put if in CT? Elon did say the tech is not ready...

It would make sense and they did say that they would ramp up as soon as they figure out the dry electrode manufacturing (new version every 3-4 months and expected to be good at V6 and on V4 now), but it is another thing to say it specifically than to have people guessing, don't you think? Humans are good at reading between the lines and being wrong.

 

[Red61224]

well it is a fact that long distance drives take a good amount longer even with tesla supercharging.
i have family in nevada 8 hours away, 500 miles, we do it in about 8.5 hours every time, stopping usually 3 times for about 10-15 minutes each time.

iv never done a tesla trip, as i dont own 1. but i would think that trip would take around 10 hours some1 please correct me if im way off.

Have you explored the website: Abetterrouteplanner.com

It's for All EVs so you have the fun to compare the options available in the EV market. Chargers that are available, their locations, route planning are all in there.

Plugin your favorite EV with your starting point and destination and see what happens. From all my calculations I am now a bigger fan of the CyberTruck with it's potential to transport me and the gang from coast to coast safely and oil free.

 

[fritter63]

I live in the northern states and -30 happens almost never. Now Canada might be more often but it's certainly not a normal temperature. But I suppose you mean celsius and not fahrenheit. But the average low temperature in the winter in the USA is just above freezing.

And it’s getting warmer.... ??...??...?

 

[Crissa]

For anyone living in the northern states & Canada that is the normal tempature.

No it's not. https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/minneapolis/minnesota/united-states/usmn0503

Let's go a bit more north...
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=median+tempeorature+by+month+baniff

*shrug*

But you only need to get to 0C to give Lithium batteries problems. Which is why Tesla has thermal management both up and down.

-Crissa

 

[Crissa]

- will the CT use the new batteries?

They said yes.

- charge voltages and rates (with less temperature sensitivity could batteries charge faster?)

They said the new tabless batteries generated less heat while charging.

- battery longevity (they said nothing of the number of charge cycles the new batteries will support; at 500 miles full charge 2,500 cycles would be required for a 1.25 million mile battery)

They said they hoped for more reliability. It'll take time to test the million-mile battery.

- chargers for CT

They didn't talk about chargers, other than this will unlock faster charging.

- charge range (currently 20-80, could it be better with less concern over temperature, maybe 10-90?)

The 20-80 isn't about temperature, it's about the volatility of the separator and anode. They won't know that until they have millions of charge cycles under their belts.

-Crissa

 

[TI4Dan]

With the newly designed battery I suspect CT Dual motor may have a new range of 350 -375 miles. It will accomplish this on less cells that are more energy dense. Also fewer cell result in less weight which make CT a light lighter vehicle. The new battery design will help make CT stronger in it's unibody design with the new concept of battery tray. The charging times will decrease due to tabless battery design, plus I think CT will have more HP and faster 0-60 times.
The price will probably stay the same since the new technology is costly to implement.
I focused on dual motor since that is my reservation choice.
Now I really can't wait.

 

[Dave.Me]

No it's not. https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/minneapolis/minnesota/united-states/usmn0503

Let's go a bit more north...
https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=median+tempeorature+by+month+baniff

*shrug*

But you only need to get to 0C to give Lithium batteries problems. Which is why Tesla has thermal management both up and down.

-Crissa

Look at the Dakotas and North of that, Winnipeg, not west to Banff. The weather easily surpasses -30c in the winter. With the windchill it exceeds -30c easily & often. Last year we had days that hit -40C with the windchill. This is about the loss of range in cold weather, which can exceed 45% & more during those conditions. Been here for 62 years & it gets COLD, obviously colder then where your located Crissa.

 

[JBee]

They said that slot of the energy density increases come from using silicone anode. The 5x is not because the cell is larger. A 2170 cell with the new tech would also have a 5x increase

Are you saying that the 54% range increase is from the redesigned battery or because of the increased cell volume or both?

Sadly % are easily misrepresented if the base line is unknown. :-(

I'd dare say that all the improvements, including the cell size increase, the tab-less dry cell design, the new anode/cathode, plus the weight savings all add up to the improvements stated in the graph. That and also the fact that they said some of the improvements can also benefit other cell chemistries, makes me think that the sum of all the improvements makes up the performance and economic gains.

And technically they are still impressive in themselves.:

- overall 56% reduction in battery costs means down to around $45kwh, meaning that with this battery EV cars will be cheaper to make than combustion engine cars (they needed to achieve $80kwh for that, so a fair bit cheaper)
- no thermal bottleneck in the new 4680 cells because of the tabless design, meaning faster discharge rates (so higher power output for faster acceleration from a even smaller cheaper pack) and probably more important faster charge times, meaning that even small packs can have very fast mph charging. That in turn means smaller cars, even with smaller batteries and ranges, won't suffer as much from "range anxiety" as they can also be quickly recharged for longer trips now. (let alone smaller packs are lighter etc)
- less battery pack heat = more power goes to the wheels
- structural pack = less weight = less rolling resistance =more range = less material to build vehicle
- overall environmental impact reduction, and starting to mine their own resources along with putting out a major call out to nickel and lithium producers to multiply their outputs
- major reduction in manufacturing footprint whilst multiplying the cell production output through process streamlining. A lot of the cost reduction will likely be in capex for manufacturing lines not just operational/resource costs.
- 3TWH (3000GWh) per annum output in 3 years, currently all together they only do 150GWh per year. (or put differently $135billion of batteries a year, equivalent of 40million 75kwh car pack is a big number in itself, on top of ramp up of supplies from Panasonic, LG etc) Note that their own new capacity will be at a lower overall price than their current buying price for cells, meaning their margins on vehicles will increase with it too.
- things that where not mentioned: 1million mile battery life - likely due to insufficient testing to officially claim that yet, but that is the goal. V2G (vehicle to grid - virtual powerstation using EVs) etc, confirmed that the vehicles are capable of doing so, but that current households and connector standards would need to be upgraded to do so. But they confirmed it's only a firmware upgrade away at least, although EM doesn't appear to be a fan due to time of use issues. (All of which can be overcome with some scheduling)

I agree that CT prices would have factored in the new battery tech, from memory Battery day was scheduled pre-Covid, so only a few months between their release dates if it had gone to plan.

 

[Crissa]

Look at the Dakotas and North of that, Winnipeg,

https://www.google.com/search?q=median+tempeorature+by+month+winnipeg&rls=en

-Crissa

 

[Dave.Me]

https://www.google.com/search?q=median+tempeorature+by+month+winnipeg&rls=en

-Crissa

https://www.google.com/search?q=median+tempeorature+by+month+winnipeg&rls=en

-Crissa

The cold months are Jan, Feb & March. Cmon' up for a visit in February. It's not that cold ALL the time, but it did and does reach those negative tempuratures. I don't need the charts etc Crissa, I live here & experienced it personally. Can't wait to get my hands on that truck!

 

[Crissa]

Can't wait to get my hands on that truck!

Me neither. Tho I do wonder if you guys up in the cold will want to wrap your trucks in a blanket (That's what the guys with Zeros do to keep them from freezing up).

-Crissa