Home Charging System / Charger Kit

[ajdelange]

I currently have a Clipper Creek hcs 40 charger for a Nissan Leaf. I have 50 amp wire leading into it. Any need to upgrade for a CT?

Not really. The biggest Level 2 chargers being sold these days are 48 A which isn't that much bigger. An extra 8 amps is 8*240 = 1920 Watts Estimating 450 Wh/mi for the CT that amounts to an additional 4.3 miles per hour spent charging. Besides which a 40 A charger is the biggest you can have on a 50 A circuit.

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[FN2187]

How far will you drive, on average, in a day?
That will determine if in an 8 to 12 hour period you can charge back your average daily use.

I will drive about 50 to 70 miles per day.

 

[ldjessee]

I will drive about 50 to 70 miles per day.

Even my Leaf, plugged into a 110 socket, can get that charge in 8-12 hours, so I would not be worried about it.

 

[ajdelange]

I will drive about 50 to 70 miles per day.

Let's take 70 miles. At 450 Wh/mi you will need 70*450 = 31500 Watt hours which is 31.5 kWh hours to replace that. A 40 amp charger delivers 40*240 = 9600 W i.e. 9.6 kW. Thus the time to charge with a 40 A charger is 31.5/9.6 = 3.28 h. If you went to the maximum capability of a current Tesla production vehichle, 48 amps (which would require a 60 A circuit), it would take 3.28*40/48 = 2.73 hours or 17% less time.

 

[FN2187]

Let's take 70 miles. At 450 Wh/mi you will need 70*450 = 31500 Watt hours which is 31.5 kWh hours to replace that. A 40 amp charger delivers 40*240 = 9600 W i.e. 9.6 kW. Thus the time to charge with a 40 A charger is 31.5/9.6 = 3.28 h. If you went to the maximum capability of a current Tesla production vehichle, 48 amps (which would require a 60 A circuit), it would take 3.28*40/48 = 2.73 hours or 17% less time.

Thank you. Definitely not worth the upgrade at this point.

 

[Sirfun]

Let's take 70 miles. At 450 Wh/mi you will need 70*450 = 31500 Watt hours which is 31.5 kWh hours to replace that. A 40 amp charger delivers 40*240 = 9600 W i.e. 9.6 kW. Thus the time to charge with a 40 A charger is 31.5/9.6 = 3.28 h. If you went to the maximum capability of a current Tesla production vehichle, 48 amps (which would require a 60 A circuit), it would take 3.28*40/48 = 2.73 hours or 17% less time.

Thanks for doing the hard math for me. The magic number is 17%, but then again with your math I was able to do multiples of 70 also. So, 70x4=280 miles is still only 13.12 hours to replenish. So 40 A charger is fine. Of course this is based on 450 Wh/mi which seems reasonable. Thanks Again.

 

[ajdelange]

Been thinking quite a bit about the discussions earlier with respect to phase and its definition. As an engineer I want something relatively simple and concise that applies to a n ø system whatever n is or at least up to n = 3. Here's what I came up with.

An n ø system uses n+1 wires to convey power through n independent currents. The reason there are only 3 independent currents in a 3ø system even though it has 4 wires is that the sum of the currents in all the wires must be 0. Thus if 3 currents are specified arbitrarily then the current in the 4th wire is known and is equal to minus the sum of the currents in the other 3. This current is known as the "zero sequence current" and the wire that carries it is called the "neutral'. The other wires are called "phases". They, together, carry two other signals: the direct and reverse sequences. Thus the system has 3 (complex) degrees of freedom. The magnitudes and phases of each of the 3 sequences can be independently controlled.

If the system is "ballanced" so that the sum of the phase currents is equal to 0 then the zero sequence current is also 0 and the neutral can be removed. Ballancing places restrictions on the system and so one (complex) DOF is lost - the zero sequence DOF. That's why you see three wires (or three sets of wires) on power pylons. The system has been designed to get rid of that 4th conductor and the 3rd (zero) sequence. There are now 3 wires and 2 DOF (direct and reverse) so in that sense we are tempted to call this a 2ø system but no one would do so recognizing that no system is ever perfectly balanced and that there is a zero sequence current (carried through the drain wires and the earth both of which are tied to a synthesized neutral).

A 2ø system has three wires and 2 DOF. It carries 2 independent power signals: a direct sequence (differential) and zero sequence (common mode) formed as before as minus the sum of the phase currents. Zero sequence current flows in the neutral here too. If the system can be ballanced the zero sequence current goes away and the neutral can be removed. This leaves 2 wires which can only carry one current and one DOF. This is a single phase system.

But as is the case with a 3ø system perfect balance never occurs in a 2ø system though we may approach it closely (the zero sequence voltage at my house is, at the moment, hovering between 0.2 and 0.3V). Here the story is different when it comes to what we call those 3 wires coming into out houses. Clearly if I disconnected all the loads in my house except a 240V E heater zero sequence current would go to very near 0 and I could remove the neutral and everything would continue to work as a true single phase circuit. Some chose to call our home electric supplies "single phase" on this basis and/or on the basis that in well designed house loads are more or less balanced. I'm currently using about 8 kW (car is charging) and my zero sequence current is 8 amps with the direct sequence current being 33 so I personally would not consider the system at all balanced.

Some try to take away 2ø status from the 3 wire systems that come into our houses on the basis of restricted phase relationships between the sources and/or loads. These do indeed remove DOF so that if we limit the designation 2ø to systems that have two full (complex) DOF we'd have to exclude what's in our houses. But at the same time it is clear that this systems is not single phase because a single phase system is limited to 1 and this system clearly has more than 1. Thus it is in fact a 2ø system with some restrictions in the same sense the 3 wire systems we see on the poles on the street is a 3ø system with some restrictions.

Thus it is improper to call it a single phase system but it is not a full capability bi phase system either. Hence names like "split phase" may represent the best solution.

I recognize that few will be interested in this and that even fewer will have the background to understand it and comprehension is further impaired by the necessity to be brief. Those with familiarity with power systems will recognize the influence of Fortescue and those familiar with electric cars, Clarke. Add Tesla and Park to those two and you have the fathers and mother of the BEV.

 

[Ehninger1212]

me readin Ajdelange's comments...

 

[ldjessee]

I worked with three phase power and never heard about being able to drop a conductor, as the equipment I worked on did not.

 

[TyPope]

Not that anyone was asking but I have an electrician coming on Friday to install a 100Amp sub-panel, a single 20 Amp circuit with outlet, a Gen 3 Tesla Charger on a 60 Amp circuit, and another 60 Amp circuit that will terminate in a junction box where I'll eventually add a second Gen 3 Tesla Charger. $1,250... The wife isn't thrilled about THAT part of it but I told her I was going to have the box and 120 line installed anyway which would have run me about $1,000 anyway so this "electric car charger thing" basically only ran $250. Now, I already have the Gen 3 charger so there's that.

I'll just keep my eyes on the guy so he makes holes in the right spot and routes the wires through the charger in the right locations. Though I know he SHOULD already know how to install one... They are quite simple once you have the wire to the thing.

 

[ajdelange]

I worked with three phase power and never heard about being able to drop a conductor, as the equipment I worked on did not.

So you learned something! Great. That's the idea.

Anything that is ∆ connected has no zero sequence (neutral) current and so doesn't need a neutral. Nor, for that matter does a balanced load that is Y connected (obvious example: the motors in our cars), Something like a motor or 3ø heater is going to be pretty closely balanced and so while prohibiting 0 sequence current will increase reverse sequence current it won't do so greatly. Therefore something like a heater or motor may well not have a neutral. But it may have a 4th wire as a protective ground. Note that three phase plugs have terminals labeled X, Y, Z and G implying that this might be the case (I'm not an electrician). This is the same idea as in 240V plug which does not have a neutral pin but does have a protective ground pin.

 

[CyberG]

The 60 amp breaker needs two slots in the circuit breaker, right? And if there are two open but not next to each other, can the electrician move another breaker to the other side so the two are next to each other?

 

[TyPope]

The 60 amp breaker needs two slots in the circuit breaker, right? And if there are two open but not next to each other, can the electrician move another breaker to the other side so the two are next to each other?

If there is enough wire there, sure. They can also use half slot breakers for the smaller 15 and 20 amp circuits to free up space. At least, that's what my electrician said.

 

[ajdelange]

The 60 amp breaker needs two slots in the circuit breaker, right? And if there are two open but not next to each other, can the electrician move another breaker to the other side so the two are next to each other?

Yes, the HWC must connect to both phases (poles) on the panel and that must be done with a two pole breaker which is two single pole breakers with the toggles tied together. The electrician certainly can rearrange things in the panel in order to get two adjacent slots and to make wide slots (I don't think there are any skinny format two pole breakers above 50A) by replacing fat style breakers with slim ones. You may have breakers and panels such that a new 60A two pole just cannot be fit in but that would be unusual.

Note: If the wire feeding a breaker that has to be moved is not long enough to reach it's new location the electrician will simply splice in a longer wire.

 

[Cybertruck99]

my god people. the charger is built into the car ! i have a gadget that you can ever plug into 120 volt outlets and sends 23 amps to the charger on board the car.
the charger is not on the wall of your garage. at our collision repair shop i have every 230/60/1 nema 15-50 plug wired with a neutral wire and plug any tesla model anywhere in shop or outside park lot CHARGER IS ON THE CAR The silver box from tesla you can buy is nothing more that a cord from power source to tesla car and it looks pretty