Canadian Prices Suck

[Héli]

Same applies for home air conditioner as we used to call them. I saved a lot on heating bills when I do use it over minus 15 degrees.
By the way, Canadian electricity is a lot cheaper than most places in the US, especially in Québec. We have a model 3 and I have not seen a difference in my power bill whether in summer or winter. What is your concern in Canada?

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[Shumby]

Yeah, rich Canadians tired of waiting in line with poor Canadians prefer the US where their money jumps them ahead of poor Americans.

Not. A. Good. Look.

-Crissa

I never really understand this. THere needs to be a dual system. I am in canada. I need a covid test to return to work but it will be hit or miss if i get my results in time because my only option is the public testing. Why can i not pay for a private test? This does 2 things. It frees up testing space and also reduces cost to the health care system. I really don't want to tie up the system and use funds when I know I don't have to have the test except for work. PAy to play is what I say but I have no options.

 

[Héli]

I never really understand this. THere needs to be a dual system. I am in canada. I need a covid test to return to work but it will be hit or miss if i get my results in time because my only option is the public testing. Why can i not pay for a private test? This does 2 things. It frees up testing space and also reduces cost to the health care system. I really don't want to tie up the system and use funds when I know I don't have to have the test except for work. PAy to play is what I say but I have no options.

Cannot answer that as I do not know......

 

[ajdelange]

Since refrigerant boils at such a low temperature, the heat can be transfered after the compressor to the cabin or battery and then when it gets to the evaporator, it can use the outside temperature to cool it.

Getting closer but not quite. When the refrigerant boils it picks up the enthalpy (heat plus PV work) of the phase change. When compressed it picks up the enthalpy of the compression (PV work). The hot gas is then run through a heat exchanger where it sheds enthalpy both through phase change and PV work. At this point it is a warm liquid. If you want to subcool you do that inside as the additional sub cooling extracts more heat for whatever it is you are trying to warm. For example, with R134A, If you can subcool to 30 °C as opposed to 40 °C each kg will deliver about 25 kJ more heat to the load and pick up 25 kJ/kg more in the evaporator.

The cold air does not cool the refrigerant. It warms it in the sense that it transfers energy to it but through the phase change, not a temperature rise. The refrigerant stays at boiling temperature even though it is absorbing enthalpy. Up to the point, that is, where all the liquid has evaporated at which point the temperature does rise (super heat). Thus the refrigerant cools the air - not the other way round.

This won't be perfected

Second Law says it won't be perfect but in fact it doesn't even come close to what Second Law predicts. Hot and cold reservoirs 20 °C apart near 0 °C deliver a theoretical COP of about 14. Real machines in fact are likely to deliver COP of 3 or 4 with COP approaching 1 as it gets colder outside. But in the working range you get lots more heat from a heat pump than the electric heater using the same amount of juice. The electric heater is there for when it gets really cold out.

But the main point of all of this is ...

The main point of this is that when the weather is cold heat is needed to keep the battery and the driver in a comfortable temperature range. Unless taken from somewhere else, that heat energy must come from the battery. In a BEV there are a couple of sources for this energy other than electricity from the battery. One is "waste" heat generated by the internal resistance of the battery. Another is "waste heat" generated by the inverters. Still another is "waste heat" generated by the motors. Clearly "waste" is in quotes because we, in fact, don't wish to waste any of that heat. The Y has piping and loops to pump this heat, to the extent possible, where it will do some good. But the big distinction with the Y is that in can capture heat from the air which surrounds it.

 

[CyberMoose]

Getting closer but not quite. When the refrigerant boils it picks up the enthalpy (heat plus PV work) of the phase change. When compressed it picks up the enthalpy of the compression (PV work). The hot gas is then run through a heat exchanger where it sheds enthalpy both through phase change and PV work. At this point it is a warm liquid. If you want to subcool you do that inside as the additional sub cooling extracts more heat for whatever it is you are trying to warm. For example, with R134A, If you can subcool to 30 °C as opposed to 40 °C each kg will deliver about 25 kJ more heat to the load and pick up 25 kJ/kg more in the evaporator.

The cold air does not cool the refrigerant. It warms it in the sense that it transfers energy to it but through the phase change, not a temperature rise. The refrigerant stays at boiling temperature even though it is absorbing enthalpy. Up to the point, that is, where all the liquid has evaporated at which point the temperature does rise (super heat). Thus the refrigerant cools the air - not the other way round.

Second Law says it won't be perfect but in fact it doesn't even come close to what Second Law predicts. Hot and cold reservoirs 20 °C apart near 0 °C deliver a theoretical COP of about 14. Real machines in fact are likely to deliver COP of 3 or 4 with COP approaching 1 as it gets colder outside. But in the working range you get lots more heat from a heat pump than the electric heater using the same amount of juice. The electric heater is there for when it gets really cold out.




The main point of this is that when the weather is cold heat is needed to keep the battery and the driver in a comfortable temperature range. Unless taken from somewhere else, that heat energy must come from the battery. In a BEV there are a couple of sources for this energy other than electricity from the battery. One is "waste" heat generated by the internal resistance of the battery. Another is "waste heat" generated by the inverters. Still another is "waste heat" generated by the motors. Clearly "waste" is in quotes because we, in fact, don't wish to waste any of that heat. The Y has piping and loops to pump this heat, to the extent possible, where it will do some good. But the big distinction with the Y is that in can capture heat from the air which surrounds it.

How about this, i'm not even going to read what you wrote so we can stop arguing. We will agree that you are right and I encourage you to immediately call Tesla's engineers and inform them that they are wrong.

Make sure you also look up Model Y heatpump on youtube and contact any engineer that has posted a video. We need to make sure everyone had the correct information that you are putting on here so Science can get back on track

 

[ajdelange]

How about this, i'm not even going to read what you wrote so we can stop arguing.

Wasn't aware that there was an argument.

We will agree that you are right and I encourage you to immediately call Tesla's engineers and inform them that they are wrong.

If you recognize that I am right, (and the Tesla engineers would, of course, agree with everything I have said so I don't see how they enter into this), then how is there an argument?

Make sure you also look up Model Y heatpump on youtube and contact any engineer that has posted a video.

You might want to check This guy is good. Watch this one and try to understand what he is saying. If you can understand what he is saying your apparent desire to start an argument will go away.

I'll just point out that the lead in graphic is a little misleading. The big arrow pointing to the picture of the Y's compressor is somewhat misleading. That's part of the heat pump but not the heatpump.

We need to make sure everyone had the correct information that you are putting on here so Science can get back on track

You misinterpret the science but the science has never been "off track".

You may want to check up some on how heat pumps work before embarrassing yourself further here.

 

[Geo]

What, no mention of Enthalpy and Entropy once !

Still quite effective

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, I think this guy is pretty good, I've seen several of his videos. There are lots of videos out there that are loaded with errors but I would tell anyone without hesitation to trust what this guy says.

Fully understanding refrigeration to the point where you can talk about how many BTU of heat get transferred requires use of a pressure vs enthalpy diagram but you can just call enthalpy "heat" and get away with it. Fortunately the only aspect of entropy that is of significance (in doing rough refrigeration calculations) is that it doesn't change during compression so that you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Crissa]

Cannot answer that as I do not know......

Yeah, not sure why 'I have cash, I get to go first (or at all)' is not considered kinda uncool for life-sustaining activities...

-Crissa

(Nor do I understand why someone needs to argue with 'cool' to saying 'it's not cooling, it's shedding heat energy.' Which is umm, cooling.)

 

[Crissa]

The only thing that raising minimum wage in Canada did was benefit people who worked minimum wage and still lived with parents and for the majority of Canadians lost hours, lost benefits, some lost businesses, and we all watched our dollar fall to where it is now.

This statement is rated as 'unsupported' and 'mostly false'.

Even the basic math - paying people who spend more of their earned dollars - doesn't support this statement.

And the basic history of the Canadian dollar doesn't , either.

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

This statement is rated as 'unsupported' and 'mostly false'.

Even the basic math - paying people who spend more of their earned dollars - doesn't support this statement.

And the basic history of the Canadian dollar doesn't , either.

-Crissa

These aren't just my words, they are economic studies that show that the minimum wage increase didn't help the people that it needed to help. You don't have to take my word, look at all the articles from right after that wage increase happened in Ontario. You will find that a lot of people lost their jobs, a lot of people lost hours, a lot of companies cut benefits, and there are a lot of people that spoke up and said that the minimum wage increase made them earn less or they lost money after having to pay their own benefits.

As for our dollar, it's gone down for several reasons that has been related to raising minimum wage and wanting more social programs. If we want to raise our dollar; we need people working hard and we need businesses staying in Canada.

 

[Crissa]

These aren't just my words, they are economic studies...

That aren't cited, hence, 'unsupported.'

The assertion that inflation will rise is not supported by observational evidence. The assertion that jobs overall will shrink is also not observed across the board - and even where it is seen, the remaining workers then are better paid. How is that a bad thing?

If a 'would' is not supported by 'dids' then it's not a given, is it?

-Crissa

 

[Joe123]

I think the second quote really says it all.

I have gotten sick in the US and much prefer the system there as do our Canadian friends who have moved to the US because of medical needs.

I don't really get that. I've lived in both countries, and I've found the Canadian health care system far superior. Yeah, you have to wait for things that aren't that crucial - e.g., getting my ACL repaired. But you can always go somewhere and pay for it, if you're in a hurry. Meanwhile - broken bones, various surgeries, CTs and MRIs for otherwise inexplicable symptoms - in immediately - and it's all free. I would have been bankrupt 5x over if I lived in the US for those without expensive insurance. And my friends who've had cancer - top notch (rated best in the world), immediate, and free care. I can see why Canadian doctors move to the US - they get paid a whack more, from the exorbitant hospital charges to patients (although their malpractice insurance is way higher). Not dissing the US - great country in so many ways, and I loved living there, but for this topic, there's no question for me.

 

[CostcoSamples]

Well this turned into quite the discussion...

anyway, I don’t see Canadian prices improving anytime soon. Our dollar is likely to lose value as our corrupt liberal government prints the currency into oblivion. The US dollar is also being printed into oblivion, but its status as global reserve currency /petro dollar gives it strength over all others.

 

[ajdelange]

I've found the Canadian health care system far superior.

Of course you'd think that were you foolish enough to believe:

...and it's all free.