Engineering Explained: If Gas cars are banned, Can The Grid Handle Electric Cars?

[Luke42]

EVs mostly charge non-peak hours. Very little charging is during peak hours. Instead of a peaker plant, we would make sure every EV comes with a timer in its charging system. Which would both make the battery last longer and shift the load to when we have capacity.

Making sire workplaces have a place to charge up at would be good, too, because solar comes in the day. All those parking lots could be solar - shading the cars and filling them up with cheap power.

-Crissa

I was mostly thinking about the impact of solar. I should have been more specific.

As you likely know, but many members of this forum do not, there are a few things about the electric grid that need to be explained more explicitly:

• The "duck curve" describes the typical daily variation in electricity demand. The peak is in mid-afternoon (when A/C is required), and the low is late at night. They call it the "duck curve" because some people say it looks like a duck when plotted.
• Baseload plants (coal & nuclear mostly) take days to throttle up, and so they mostly run at full power all the time. Because they cannot track electrical demand efficiently, they cannot power our whole electric grid.
• Peaker plants (hydro, NG turbines, batteries) can throttle up in minutes.
• Renewable energy plants produce power when nature tells them to.
• All of this has to add up to the demand (the "duck curve") in order to keep the grid balanced. There's a behind-the-scenes wholesale electricity-production market to make sure this happens.

With that as context, Crissa is rightly pointing out that EVs mostly charge at night on baseload power. If the demand for electricity exceeds the baseload power, the peaker plants will pick up the extra load, just like they do on a hot summer afternoon (while most commuters are at work). Most of the analyses I've read conclude the grid can handle this as the normal course of business.

My comment was mostly about what changes would need to happen behind the scenes if we deployed enough solar to start displacing baseload power during the day. When that happens, we'll need more peaker plants, because renewables are less predictable than coal plants.

Hopefully this helps frame the conversation better.

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[Crissa]

Locally, we're installing a huge amount of batteries to alleviate the peaker issue. Batteries move even faster than peaker plants, so don't have to over-produce like the peaker plants.

They're also funding installation of timed EV charging, tho no solid plans exist yet, to charge cars during the day at work or home, or at night at home. Shifting the demand to when we have more renewable energy available.

The peak power demand of a summer's day is 60% more than the lowest during that day. That means we have to have that much more generation sitting around.

So needing 30% more power - especially power that doesn't happen at the peak - is no big deal. More, EVs are batteries, and can store power from when it's cheap to when it's needed.

-Crissa

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

I was mostly thinking about the impact of solar. I should have been more specific.

As you likely know, but many members of this forum do not, there are a few things about the electric grid that need to be explained more explicitly:

• The "duck curve" describes the typical daily variation in electricity demand. The peak is in mid-afternoon (when A/C is required), and the low is late at night. They call it the "duck curve" because some people say it looks like a duck when plotted.
• Baseload plants (coal & nuclear mostly) take days to throttle up, and so they mostly run at full power all the time. Because they cannot track electrical demand efficiently, they cannot be our whole electric grid.
• Peaker plants (hydro, NG turbines, batteries) can throttle up in minutes.
• Renewable energy plants produce power when nature tells them to.
• All of this has to add up to the demand (the "duck curve"). There's a behind-the-scenes wholesale electricty-production market to make sure this happens.

With that as context, Crissa is rightly pointing out that EVs charge at night on baseload power. If the demand for electricity exceeds the baseload power, the peaker plants will pick up the extra load, just like they do on a hot summer afternoon (while most commuters are at work). Most of the analyses I've read conclude the grid can handle this as the normal course of business.

My comment was mostly about what changes would need to happen behind the scenes if we deployed enough solar to start displacing baseload power during the day. When that happens, we'll need more peaker plants, because renewables are less predictable than coal plants.

Hopefully this helps frame the conversation better.

The California Energy Commission and the Department Of Energy have been very active in supporting research in load balancing by shifting EV charging to renewable sources when there is a surplus (during the daytime hours). Hopefully the research will show reductions that can be rolled out in coming years, but if people charge at home, at night, a shift in behavior will be needed.

 

[MEDICALJMP]

Norway’s Energy Use Is Through The Roof Due To Widespread EV Adoption
By: Andrei Nedelea
February 10, 2021

Believe it or not, Norway’s per-capita electricity consumption is twice that of neighboring Sweden.

If you like to stay up to date on what matters in the world of electric vehicles, then you know Norway is a world leader when it comes to electric vehicle adoption. Well, as you can imagine, the country has much higher per-capita energy consumption numbers compared to any other country.
Norway has the second highest per-capita electricity usage in the world after Iceland. The average Norwegian used around 23,210 kWh per year in 2019, almost twice what the average American used in the same year. In case you were wondering which country is the world's largest electron guzzler per-capita, well, it’s Iceland, a small and cold country where the vast majority of buildings are warmed using electricity (most of which is renewably generated by harnessing clean geothermal energy, though); plug-ins are growing in popularity in Iceland too.

And if current trends continue, it is estimated that Norway’s power usage will grow by some 30 percent by 2040. This northern European nation that also happens to have vast offshore oil reserves, has been pushing for electrification harder than any other country. It is not only offering people excellent incentives to not buy ICE vehicles, but it’s also been electrifying any and all forms of public transport. In Norway, around 85 percent of households rely on electricity for heating too, way more than most other countries (except Iceland, of course).

https://insideevs.com/news/487186/norway-energy-use-soars-because-evs/

 

[azjohn]

Norway’s Energy Use Is Through The Roof Due To Widespread EV Adoption
By: Andrei Nedelea
February 10, 2021

Believe it or not, Norway’s per-capita electricity consumption is twice that of neighboring Sweden.

If you like to stay up to date on what matters in the world of electric vehicles, then you know Norway is a world leader when it comes to electric vehicle adoption. Well, as you can imagine, the country has much higher per-capita energy consumption numbers compared to any other country.
Norway has the second highest per-capita electricity usage in the world after Iceland. The average Norwegian used around 23,210 kWh per year in 2019, almost twice what the average American used in the same year. In case you were wondering which country is the world's largest electron guzzler per-capita, well, it’s Iceland, a small and cold country where the vast majority of buildings are warmed using electricity (most of which is renewably generated by harnessing clean geothermal energy, though); plug-ins are growing in popularity in Iceland too.

And if current trends continue, it is estimated that Norway’s power usage will grow by some 30 percent by 2040. This northern European nation that also happens to have vast offshore oil reserves, has been pushing for electrification harder than any other country. It is not only offering people excellent incentives to not buy ICE vehicles, but it’s also been electrifying any and all forms of public transport. In Norway, around 85 percent of households rely on electricity for heating too, way more than most other countries (except Iceland, of course).

https://insideevs.com/news/487186/norway-energy-use-soars-because-evs/

And from what I have heard electricity gets very expensive in the winter time when it is needed for heating, kinda like So California in the summer

I wonder if Norway ever suffers from brown/black outs?

 

[JudgeMetal]

Solar Electricity became the cheapest electricity in human history last year. In 2008 it would have taken 20,000 sq miles of panels to power the entire usa. That number has come down dramatically as panel efficiency went up. Just to put it in perspective.... coal mining took up 13,000 Sq miles.

Won’t most people be charging their car at night?

 

[Crissa]

And from what I have heard electricity gets very expensive in the winter time when it is needed for heating, kinda like So California in the summer...

California does that in the winter, too. We have lots of climate zones.

I wonder if Norway ever suffers from brown/black outs?

They probably don't have a 30C breadth of temperatures or suffer from transmission capacity drops due to 40-50C high temperatures.

Won’t most people be charging their car at night?

Most people aren't driving during the peak solar of the day, either.

-Crissa

 

[DarinCT]

I've watched several of Engineering Explained videos. When he gets it right and communicates well, it's well worth it. This is not one of those times.

He talks about banning ICE cars in an engineering thought experiment. Nobody is talking about banning ICE cars. They are talking about banning all new ICE vehicle sales. There will still be ICE vehicles. Sure, I get that calculating second order would be harder to explain and full of assumptions but I'm still not letting him off the hook for saying banned and then waffling on the answer.

He takes 12 minutes of rambling to get to time of day rates then he talks about grid time of day (unnecessary). The three major power providers in my state offer time of day rates. Cars that don't have smart charging should not be sold or purchased. Full stop. Everyone charges at night. Problem solved. I'm eyeballing from his chart this next part so take this with a grain of salt... Even his hypothetical (silly) instantaneous banning of ICE and everyone buying EV could almost be addressed by time-of-day charging.

 

[JudgeMetal]

If you covered Texas in solar power and could distribute that energy without loss, those panels could power the entire world - so yes having enough infrastructure could support the entire grid and transportation.

Even at night?

 

[Sirfun]

Won’t most people be charging their car at night?

Even with Solar on your house that's fine. Here in SoCal and many states they have Net metering. Net metering means your solar is hooked up to the grid and during times when your solar produces more than your needs, that excess energy goes to the grid. The power company keeps track of how much energy you ship them like a bank. Then at times when your solar is NOT producing enough energy for your needs the grid sends energy back to your house. As long as you have energy credits in your account they don't charge you for energy sent to your house. There's a monthly hookup fee for this, which works out to about $10 a month where I live.

Here's an article about Solar metering: https://www.seia.org/initiatives/net-metering

 

[TheLastStarfighter]

I didn't bother watching the video, I've attended enough session on the topic. The simple reality is, we have to. Either for the environment or because of the reality that fossil fuels are limited, we need to switch to alternative fuels. There are definitely challenges to the change, but it's all doable with the will. More EV's will increase demand on the grid, but more distributed solar will reduce it. It will probably balance out, and the rule makers will have to make sure that happens. The single biggest piece is energy storage, either for your home or the grid. It will take good planning and investment, but it will be worth it.

 

[JudgeMetal]

Ok, If you could drill in your backyard and install a pump to fill your fuel needs wouldn't you think about it?
This article explains that possibility and about how much it cost's. It talks about So Cal Edison which is my neck of the woods. And for me it's cheaper, because I'm retired and don't drive 13,000 miles per year anymore. Also they are talking about covering ALL the miles driven, at home with your solar, and NONE on trips or using Supercharging.
So, think of solar as being able to produce fuel for your vehicle yourself at a FIXED rate. IT MAKES CENTS!
If people install solar for their homes and produce power to cover their needs, how is selling EV's gonna ADD load to the grid? Selling more EV's could possibly reduce Grid load, because it will make them think about going solar.

https://www.solar.com/learn/cost-to-charge-a-tesla-model-3-with-solar-vs-socal-edison/

I’m not sure how you go about charging your car at night using solar.

 

[cybrtrk_maybe]

Not if local utilities have anything to say about it. Our utility won't let us install more than 5kW. Not even enough to cover our daily use most of the year.

They're fighting solar on homes tooth and nail. Mostly with forcing of EV rates that are higher.

Eventually I expect them to lose. But not for many years.

The electric utility allowed me up to 10KwH; Mine is 9.8.

 

[azjohn]

I’m not sure how you go about charging your car at night using solar.

You would need Net Metering or batteries

 

[Crissa]

Even at night?

Sure, if we didn't have transmission losses, you'd just power the other side of the planet.

The point being, there's more than enough power there if we reach for it. It's not really all that complex. In the US we turn on more than twice in peaker plants on a hot day than the total power needed for all cars to charge.

-Crissa