ELECTREK: Tesla Model S roof seen flying off in dashcam video, Tesla blames third-party shop

[Alan]

LOL. Sign me up for the bubble top!!

Given the past conversation, I thought the video would be a good way to show that the glass was just replaceable. Not necessarily advisable but at least possible. But I underestimated the persistence of the metal roof thread... Lesson learned.

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[Ehninger1212]

No, not true. Glass is a wonderful insulator. Just ask anyone who's tried to make a solar oven. Pro tip: Don't use auto glass. You're better off with black iron.

Funny you mention this, when we go to calculate a buildings thermal efficiency any metal in the project has basically ZERO thermal insulation. Unless said piece includes a "thermal break". Glass on the other hand glass can be easily made to insulate. In fact, its usually the aluminum mullions which hold the glass together that cause issues with achieving code efficiency. The all glass roof in the Model 3 does insulate very well in my opinion.

Heck.. I'll even throw this out. My LR3 has a glass roof. I have a roof rack which I use to hold stuff. This is not special Tesla armor glass either. I have dropped plenty of tools and things on it and it is still in one piece. I would be willing the place money on the fact that if it was a piece of metal it would be all dented and scratched.

I will admit at first I thought the glass roof was stupid and would break easily. Turns out i was very wrong.

 

[firsttruck]

Funny you mention this, when we go to calculate a buildings thermal efficiency any metal in the project has basically ZERO thermal insulation. Unless said piece includes a "thermal break". Glass on the other hand glass can be easily made to insulate. In fact, its usually the aluminum mullions which hold the glass together that cause issues with achieving code efficiency. The all glass roof in the Model 3 does insulate very well in my opinion.

All these cars with glass roof and this great insulation value of glass over that of metal yet still frequently get to interior temps of 140-150F when it is only 100F outside.

Maybe insulation is not what is needed.
Maybe NOT having a glass roof would reduce the amount of sunshine entering the car and heating it up.

Heck.. I'll even throw this out. My LR3 has a glass roof. I have a roof rack which I use to hold stuff. This is not special Tesla armor glass either. I have dropped plenty of tools and things on it and it is still in one piece. I would be willing the place money on the fact that if it was a piece of metal it would be all dented and scratched.

So you are comparing the dent & scratch resistance of normal Tesla painted metal ALUMINUM roof to unpainted 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

If this armor glass is so tough, light, dent resistant, scratch resistant, cheap as I am being told, I should be able to find plenty of shop work benches with this miracle top material.

Why is Tesla bothering with this 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel stuff. Should they make the whole exoskeleton from armor glass.
That would be like desktop computers with window in case.

I will admit at first I thought the glass roof was stupid and would break easily. Turns out i was very wrong.

In the Tesla demo where the metal ball broke the armor glass is there any reasonable plausible scenario where at normal temp & pressure, that the ball thrown with the same force would crack a piece of 1 meter x 1 meter x 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

So you believe that a rock that fell with the lowest amount of force that actually could crack a armor glass roof will also crack 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

 

[Ehninger1212]

All these cars with glass roof and this great insulation value of glass over that of metal yet still frequently get to interior temps of 140-150F when it is only 100F outside.

Maybe insulation is not what is needed.
Maybe NOT having a glass roof would reduce the amount of sunshine entering the car and heating it up.




So you are comparing the dent & scratch resistance of normal Tesla painted metal ALUMINUM roof to unpainted 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

If this armor glass is so tough, light, dent resistant, scratch resistant, cheap as I am being told, I should be able to find plenty of shop work benches with this miracle top material.

Why is Tesla bothering with this 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel stuff. Should they make the whole exoskeleton from armor glass.
That would be like desktop computers with window in case.



In the Tesla demo where the metal ball broke the armor glass is there any reasonable plausible scenario where at normal temp & pressure, that the ball thrown with the same force would crack a piece of 1 meter x 1 meter x 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

So you believe that a rock that fell with the lowest amount of force that actually could crack a armor glass roof will also crack 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

Dude, you are so annoying. If you want a Damn metal roof install it yourself. Stop trolling.

 

[firsttruck]

Dude, you are so annoying. If you want a Damn metal roof install it yourself. Stop trolling.

Facts & science are not trolling.

If you are not interested in facts & science do not read my replies because that is what I try to use in my discussions & replies.

If I am wrong on a fact or science I want to know what I got wrong. I appreciate constructive criticism.

You did not answer any of the questions. Science does not give the answer you want?

In the Tesla demo where the metal ball broke the armor glass is there any reasonable plausible scenario where at normal temp & pressure, that the ball thrown with the same force would crack a piece of 1 meter x 1 meter x 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

So you believe that a rock that fell with the lowest amount of force that actually could crack a armor glass roof will also crack 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

 

[Ehninger1212]

So you believe that a rock that fell with the lowest amount of force that actually could crack a armor glass roof will also crack 3mm 30x cold rolled stainless steel?

Please reference where, in any post, I said I believe this? I'll wait.

 

[Crissa]

All these cars with glass roof and this great insulation value of glass over that of metal yet still frequently get to interior temps of 140-150F when it is only 100F outside.

Maybe insulation is not what is needed.
Maybe NOT having a glass roof would reduce the amount of sunshine entering the car and heating it up.

Steel shipping containers, sealed and left in the sun, can easily have this happen inside them.

Steel is not an insulator. It is a conductor.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

Heck.. I'll even throw this out. My LR3 has a glass roof. I have a roof rack which I use to hold stuff. This is not special Tesla armor glass either. I have dropped plenty of tools and things on it and it is still in one piece. I would be willing the place money on the fact that if it was a piece of metal it would be all dented and scratched.

I will admit at first I thought the glass roof was stupid and would break easily. Turns out i was very wrong.

It was hard to tell with some of the comments you made.

You preferred taking risk with glass roof cracking over a little scratched or dented metal.

You patted yourself on the back because your Tesla Model 3 glass roof survived (so far) your dropped tool torture test and so glass roofs must not have any breakage problem vs metal roofs despite the numerous Tesla owners who have had glass roofs replaced because of cracks (and Tesla did not pay to replace all of them).

Insurance companies believe panoramic & glass roofs are costing them more money than metal roofs.

Below is just one study that we know of.

Summary
Previous Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) reports have shown that glass claim severities have been increasing over the past five years. This report examines select Kia SUVs to understand the extent to which panoramic roofs may be contributing to this increase, as well as their impact on glass claim frequency and overall losses. Glass claim frequency for vehicles with standard panoramic roofs is 10 percent higher than for vehicles without such roofs available. Glass claim severity is 26 percent higher, and overall losses are 39 percent higher. Among vehicles that may be equipped with optional panoramic roofs, glass claim frequency is 5 percent higher, glass claim severity is 20 percent higher, and overall losses are 26 percent higher than for vehicles without panoramic roofs available. The smaller effect among this group likely reflects the fact that some vehicles likely were not equipped with these roofs


Discussion
Glass losses for vehicles with standard or optional panoramic roofs are significantly higher than vehicles without panoramic roofs. In addition, the increase is greater for vehicles with standard panoramic roofs than vehicles with optional panoramic roofs, which is expected, since not all vehicles with the option actually have it. Panoramic roofs are becoming much more widely available, with one-quarter of midsize SUVs and more than half of midsize luxury SUVs having panoramic roofs available. Over the past few years, glass claim severities have been going up, and pan-oramic roofs are likely a contributing factor, with the cost to replace these glass roofs running $800-$1,000. What’s NextThis is a preliminary look at glass losses for vehicles with panoramic roofs based on a limited sample of vehicles. As panoramic roofs become more widely available and more data is collected, HLDI wil


Bulletin Vol. 34, No. 22 : September 2017Highway Loss Data Institute
Glass losses for Kia SUVs with panoramic roofs
https://www.iihs.org/media/0d51088b...DI Research/Bulletins/hldi_bulletin_34.22.pdf

 

[firsttruck]

Steel shipping containers, sealed and left in the sun, can easily have this happen inside them.

Steel is not an insulator. It is a conductor.

Yes, steel is not as good a thermal insulator as many other materials.

scenario #1:

Austin, Texas U.S., summer day 11am - 4pm with no clouds, no wind, no shade.

Shipping container #G made of 3mm thick tinted , non-mirrored glass that let 15% of the sunlight through, sealed and left in the sun, temp test probe inside trailer near top.

Shipping container #M made of 3mm stainless steel (non-mirrored finish, unpainted) that let 0% of the sunlight through, sealed and left in the sun, temp test probe inside trailer near top.

At 4pm which probe will show the higher temp?


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ElectricTrucking ------- Location Cave Creek AZ
If I have a choice I will decline a glass roof. Too much sun here in Phoenix.
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/thoughts-on-glass-roof.187/#post-1706

 

[Ehninger1212]

It was hard to tell with some of the comments you made.

You preferred taking risk with glass roof cracking over a little scratched or dented metal.

You patted yourself on the back because your Tesla Model 3 glass roof survived (so far) your dropped tool torture test and so glass roofs must not have any breakage problem vs metal roofs despite the numerous Tesla owners who have had glass roofs replaced because of cracks (and Tesla did not pay to replace all of them).

Insurance companies believe panoramic & glass roofs are costing them more money than metal roofs.

Preferred to take risk with the glass roof cracking? No. I did not prefer it, it just happened and everything was fine.

Also, I am not speaking of a Long Range model 3. LR3 is my Land rover LR3. just to clarify. It also has a glass roof. Original glass too, been up there for over 15 years now and counting.

I was not performing a "torture test" just doing some work, im not claiming it is a torture test either.

If it is really that much better to have a steel roof on the cybertruck than a glass roof I can almost guarantee you Tesla will put it. Elon musk and his team know a few things.

 

[Crissa]

At 4pm which probe will show the higher temp?

It depends upon the glass.

Light that we see has very low irradiance. This is why we can see with LED lights and don't need the sun. Glass can (and will) block the IR portion of the spectrum. The glass itself, as it heats up, will emit more of the heat to the side it was initially heated than steel will,

You don't even need fancy glass to test this: Old thick glass, like say a coffee table, vs a piece of cold black iron. The iron will heat up the object underneath it more than the glass, given a couple hours.

Two things are happening here: You are confusing translucency with emissivity. Glass is high at one, but low at the other. Steel is low at one, but high at the other. And because steel is conductive, that means the heat it absorbs it happily re-radiates in all directions. And since 50% of of a sheet's direction is into your container...

Modern automotive glass takes this into account. It reflects a bunch with coatings we can't see. It has a plastic layer inside which provides structure, isolation, and hence, insulative value. And it's just glued in place, unlike steel.

As long as the vehicle is designed for glass first, steel won't be cheaper.

-Crissa

And yes, I had to look up the words I put in italics so I wouldn't use them wrong.

 

[firsttruck]

Another example of why glass roofs cost more in the long run.

Repair shop had to remove rear glass & roof glass to repair bumper damage.
Repair shop broke the rear glass during the repair process. So directly or indirectly somebody got a huge bill for the broken rear glass.

It Keeps Getting Worse! You Won't Believe How Long & Much to Fix Our Tesla Model 3 - Thrifty 3 Ep.11
The Fast Lane Car
Jun 7, 2019

 

[Crissa]

Another example of why glass roofs cost more in the long run.

This is:

A) Not really on topic
B) Not about manufacture cost
C) They could've just as easily broken the roof panel by dropping it.
D) That's the rear window
E) That was a bit more damage than 'a fender'
F) That sort of damage on a Honda unibody with a metal roof would have totaled it. And they didn't have glass roofs.

-Crissa