Starlink capabilities?

[FutureBoy]

So I’m on a business trip at the moment and have a rental vehicle. It has SiriusXM radio in it. It’s been a long time since I’ve been around SiriusXM. But it got me thinking.

what are the chances that starlink has the ability to also start broadcasting a 1-way signal to compete with SiriusXM? Or for Tesla Vehicles to be auto updated over starlink instead of cell networks?

I’m wondering if starlink is using software defined radio SDF internally. If so, starlink would be able to compete with geographically specific radio too. Just modify the bands and stations being broadcast as each satellite traverses the various regions of the world.
With a 1-way signal the earth bound receiver wouldn’t have to be large I’d think and bandwidth issues wouldn’t be an issue over highly populated areas.

And Tesla vehicles could be updated world wide even if they were out of cell range for a long period of time.

This capability would not be able to compete with 2-way services like his locators, but a partial capability could be for a stolen Tesla to be completely disabled remotely world wide and possibly an alarm triggered.

Anyone have any other ideas that such a starlink service would be good for?

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[Crissa]

Yes, But it would be expensive for that.

-Crissa

 

[NiceGuyMax]

Maybe Cyber Truck owners will get a special deal for Starlink.
We can be beta testers or not

 

[FutureBoy]

Yes, But it would be expensive for that.

-Crissa

Do you mean expensive to put up the satellites? Yes, except that the satellites would be largely free to use for these incremental uses. In theory, the internet service will pay for the satellites and still make a profit. Any additional uses would be gravy on top. The additional cost of people providing content and additional network maintenance would be required. But the initial design and launch costs plus general maintenance would have already been paid for by the internet service.

Speaking of services, another competitor to gps? This might not be possible if starlink is already using gps to self locate its own satellites.

 

[Crissa]

The Starlink satellites have a certain bandwidth available. Using it to broadcast someone that ping doesn't matter to is not cost effective.

Starlink - in the US - will mostly be aimed at low ping corporate uses. They will be able to buy bandwidth at a much higher price. Rural uses are second, but you have to be really, really far from some city that can pay a higher rate.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

what are the chances that starlink has the ability to also start broadcasting a 1-way signal to compete with SiriusXM? Or for Tesla Vehicles to be auto updated over starlink instead of cell networks?

If you are going to put a bus up there you can put any kind of transponders and antennae on it that fit (the satellite and the mission). The mission of Starlink is to bring broad band internet to users in unserved areas. The mission of SiriusXM is to broadcast audio. Internet is inherently a broad band signal and audio narrow. Therefore more power is required at the receiver. The power required is that to make the ratio, Eb/No, of the energy in each bit large enough relative to the noise density that it can be decoded reliably. Internet sends lots more bits per second than audio in many applications. Therefore more power has to be put on the target for reliable communications. As there is no point, if serving a customer in village A, in sending power to village B which power would be at best wasted and at worst potentially interfere with communication to a custome in village B, the satellite antennas are likely to form relatively narrow beams directed at relatively small regions. With a broadcast satellite less power is needed, the signal is narrow band (relatively), the transponders are lower powered and the beams broader.

I’m wondering if starlink is using software defined radio SDF internally.

I wondered what that meant and so looked it up on Wikipedia. I was very surprised to see the Gold Room (which was at ESL eventually bought by TRW) mentioned and so called because it used to be called the Blue Room because of its blue carpet. When one of the guys mentioned to his wife that he'd been working in the Blue Room all day she burst out laughing. She was an airline stewardess and "blue room" is evidently their argot for the loos on an airplane. So they changed it to Gold Room. But in any case the "software radio" got kicked off in the 70's in the Bay Area (though people were working on it all over the country too). If you want to pin it down to a particular name I suppose that would be Bernie Widrow at Stanford. And yes, in that time frame the software radios involved racks and racks of array processors (that clocked at a whopping 15 MHz but could do an add, a multiply and an address calculation in one clock cycle). Today they are in every cell phone (and lots of other gear too).

What the pioneers did with their array processors was develop algorithms by writing software. The software radio lives on today in the sense that those algorithms have been migrated to hardware in special purpose chips. You can be sure that the Starlink satellites and the Starlink ground terminals include such chips and in that sense are "software radios".

If so, starlink would be able to compete with geographically specific radio too.

If SpaceX wanted to redesign the satellites for these missions or add these missions to the current design then they could compete in these areas. The fact that modern telecommunications equipment uses technologies developed under the broad umbrella of "software radio" has nothing to do with it.

With a 1-way signal the earth bound receiver wouldn’t have to be large I’d think and bandwidth issues wouldn’t be an issue over highly populated areas.

Look at your smart phone. It has a BlueTooth transceiver, a WiFi transceiver, a GPS receiver and probably 3 cell phone band transceivers. Adding receivers vs transceivers doesn't have much impact on size. But it isn't the size of the box that is important with space communications. It is the size of the antenna. It must be large enough to collect enough Eb from the satellite.

And Tesla vehicles could be updated world wide even if they were out of cell range for a long period of time.

If the roof of each Tesla could be turned into a phased array capable of putting a beam on a passing Starlink satellite then it would have internet connectivity wherever it happened to be. All the functions that we now get from internet connection would be available. This includes OAT software updates, the voice recognition system, maps, route planning, data logging, entertainment streaming, remote control of the vehicle... But for the moment there are, AFAIK, no plans to do this though I am sure it has been extensively discussed. Why would Tesla want to pay ATT for vehicle communications if they could handle it themselves?

This capability would not be able to compete with 2-way services like his locators,

Don't know to whom "his" refers nor what his "locators" are but certainly a connected (anywhere, via satellite) car that can also see GPS can be located and disabled remotely.

Anyone have any other ideas that such a starlink service would be good for?

A vehicle with a Starlink connection is "on line" so the question is really "What can you do if connected to the internet?"

 

[Dave Miller]

Just make the front hood into a giant receiver. It dosen't make sense to put it in the panoramic glass roof.

 

[showmemo]

As someone that lives semi-rurally (only about 10 minutes from a city) and has very limited Internet options, I hope Starlink goes to rural residential before being used in cars. I had DSL speeds up until about 6 months ago and now have barely better ptp wireless service. Working from home is less than enjoyable and gaming is ok at best. If the house is full and everyone's online, everyone's service is terrible.

So, I hope Elon's promise to provide service to underserved areas is kept and that the speeds are what he has indicated.

@Crissa, from what I've seen and heard about Starlink, the statement Starlink - in the US - will mostly be aimed at low ping corporate uses is not accurate. It is a possible use case, but the satellites are not intended/designed to handle numerous, congested area connections. It is designed to get service to underserved areas. It will provide a better ping between NY and London, so I'm sure there will be some of that in play, but I don't think its the priority. Or, at least, I haven't seen anything indicating that to be true.

 

[Crissa]

....but the satellites are not intended/designed to handle numerous, congested area connections.

This is exactly why it won't help for your use-case: You're too near congested signal-space. They're said their uplinks will be geographically market-priced, so it's very likely you and I will be priced out of their service by those willing to spend more to get access.

Their system will be great (and probably cheap) once you are beyond the horizon from cities, but that is hours from a city, not minutes.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

Just speculating here but I'm guessing the goal is to get latency and especially jitter down to the point where VOIP is useable. That sort of leaves store and forward out and strongly implies satelite to satelite relay. With LEO's maybe but we'll see.

 

[showmemo]

This is exactly why it won't help for your use-case: You're too near congested signal-space. They're said their uplinks will be geographically market-priced, so it's very likely you and I will be priced out of their service by those willing to spend more to get access.

Their system will be great (and probably cheap) once you are beyond the horizon from cities, but that is hours from a city, not minutes.

-Crissa

The congestion refers to too many connections to the satellite that would happen in a more populated area, not the number of people... just to clarify. I think that's what you meant, but just in case.

I've been following Starlink for some time and at no time has Elon indicated that the service is intended for corporate use. On the contrary he has indicated it is to serve 'underserved' people. When you sign up for a beta, you have to indicate what your current options are. So, I'm hoping the intention is to help anyone with poor service currently.

The satellites have limited bandwidth capabilities right now (20GB I think) so the number of concurrent connections is going to be somewhat limited.

He has also said the latency and bandwidth goal is to get down to VOIP and competitive gamer quality, which also allows Starlink to get some of that Fed money. Some of that will be done with laser interlinks between satellites. Very cool stuff.

I do agree that this doesn't seem to have a good place in automotive right now, though.

 

[Crissa]

...and at no time has Elon indicated that the service is intended for corporate use. On the contrary he has indicated it is to serve 'underserved' people.

...Because that sounds better. Just like they announce the single-motor base variant price first but release the most expensive models first.

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

The Starlink satellites have a certain bandwidth available. Using it to broadcast someone that ping doesn't matter to is not cost effective.

Starlink - in the US - will mostly be aimed at low ping corporate uses. They will be able to buy bandwidth at a much higher price. Rural uses are second, but you have to be really, really far from some city that can pay a higher rate.

-Crissa

Looks like Crissa has a point.

SpaceX Starlink partners with Microsoft Azure to deploy cloud computing anywhere