New Battery Range & Pack Architecture [Announced at Battery Day]

[MAJMurphy]

I live in the northern states and -30 happens almost never. Now Canada might be more often but it's certainly not a normal temperature. But I suppose you mean celsius and not fahrenheit. But the average low temperature in the winter in the USA is just above freezing.

I live in a cold area of Canada - Quebec. Average temp in winter is -10 to -15C approx. It does go to -20C or lower for perhaps 15+ days a winter. -30C would be exceedingly rare, say 5 days a year. A bad 20-25 days a year in range isn’t going to sway my purchase of a CT!

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[TI4Dan]

Will the weight saving because of the new batteries put the CT into a lower category of truck or goes the actual size influence that as well, what’s the estimated weight of the CT now.
[/QUOTE
I have read that Tesla has filed with CARB that CT will be a Class 2b truck, Light / medium duty truck 8,501 - 10,000 lbs GVWR.
If you subtract the claimed payload of 3500 lbs, I believe the trimotor will be under 6500 lbs and dual motor a few hundred pounds less. Single motor CT will be the lightest possible around 5500 lbs. Elon states that the payload capacity was 3500 lbs across all three variants so even the single motor CT will be classified as a 2b Light / medium duty truck.

 

[ajdelange]

Even if it will be charged with the same Generation 2 or 3 Superchargers that are currently available, the charge rates could possibly not taper off until a much higher charge level of 80% or 90%. Currently, the charge rate on Teslas starts tapering off around 50% and continues to taper off as the charge level gets higher.

Actually they generally start to taper lower than that but what is amazing is how little difference it makes.

In this picture I've assumed that the charger goes at full bore until some SoC is reached and then tapers linearly down to 10% above that. I looked at the 250 kW V3 SC and the Trimotor CT with its 180 kWh battery pack which would, were there no taper, charge from 0 to 100% in 180/250 = 0.72 hrs. I've tried to represent the typical road trip situation in which one pulls into a SC with about 10% SoC on board and charges to some reasonable level above that to continue his trip. I generally shoot for 70%. At that level taper starting at 20% implies an extra 10 minutes of charging. Taper starting at 40% implies only 4 minutes extra relative to no taper. Now if I want (or need) to go to 80% SoC taper starting at 40% costs 8 minutes more than no taper and 7 minutes more than taper starting at 80%. That should be enough examples to let you look at other combinations and draw your own conclusions.

The overall conclusion is that if you operate your battery where you should (i.e away from the full and empty ends) of the SoC range where taper starts doesn't make that much difference. The wise manufacturer tapers to protect your battery. He still lets you into the high SoC regions in recognition of the fact that sometimes you just need it but discourages you from going there by slowing the charging rate appreciably. This is not done to discourage you so much as it is to protect the battery but it definitely has that effect.

Meanwhile, it is clear that what mainly drives charging time is the size of the charger relative to the battery pack. Were the charger a 500 kW unit then C/rate becomes 0.36 hr and all the numbers on the chart drop in half. 500 kW charging on the CT is quite possible by adding a separate charging port and having two V3 chargers available in certain special stalls or allowing CTs to charge at the stations the Semis will be using.

 

[GeicoNotGecko]

I live in the northern states and -30 happens almost never. Now Canada might be more often but it's certainly not a normal temperature. But I suppose you mean celsius and not fahrenheit. But the average low temperature in the winter in the USA is just above freezing.

I'm a little confused how you can say "almost never" when it happens at least 1 or 2 weeks every winter in Minnesota. Yeah, that's only 3% of the year and by no means normal. But that's not never. Meteorologists attribute Polar Vortexs to arctic warming so it's going to happen more frequently.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/climate/journal/cold-outbreak-january-27-31-2019.html

In February Alaska had 25 straight days of -15. Again, not normal and not -30 but still pretty extreme! Link

 

[Dids]

I'm a little confused how you can say "almost never" when it happens at least 1 or 2 weeks every winter in Minnesota. Yeah, that's only 3% of the year and by no means normal. But that's not never. Meteorologists attribute Polar Vortexs to arctic warming so it's going to happen more frequently.

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/climate/journal/cold-outbreak-january-27-31-2019.html

In February Alaska had 25 straight days of -15. Again, not normal and not -30 but still pretty extreme! Link

The almost never is in reference to the northern state I live in. If you look farther back in the thread you will see I said for most people -30 is not a normal temperature. I am aware the Minnesota can experience -60 but I don't think that it is a valid argument for saying you would want to buy a vehicle that is engineered to handle -60.
My point I was trying to make that if you could cut charge time from 20 min to 10 min then it doesn't matter if a vehicle does 300, 500 or 700 miles on one charge since most people will stop within 300 miles.

 

[Luke42]

In February Alaska had 25 straight days of -15. Again, not normal and not -30 but still pretty extreme! Link

Remember -15F is -26C.

Common touch points:
-4F = -20C-ish ("actually f*cking cold")
32F = 0C (Winter wonderland)
68F = 20C-ish (Room temperature)

 

[Crissa]

Meanwhile, it is clear that what mainly drives charging time is the size of the charger relative to the battery pack.

Technically, voltage is the constraint and why taper happens whether intentionally or not: The amount of power that can be added to a battery at any point in time is a function of the pack's time point voltage and rated power amperage. (Minus the internal resistance and whatever the temperature ceiling is at that time)

So yes, a larger charger, but even a larger charger will hit this limit while charging. Just sooner, rather than later.

-Crissa

Edited:

-4F = -20C-ish (dry cold; sea water and road salt freezes)
32F = 0C (Liquid electrolyte ithium batteries cannot be charged)
68F = 20C-ish (Your room is pleasantly cool)
122F= 50C. (Lithium batteries degrade above this point)

 

[shaneaus]

Remember -15F is -26C.

Common touch points:
-4F = -20C-ish ("actually f*cking cold")
32F = 0C (Winter wonderland)
68F = 20C-ish (Room temperature)

Wow! You people up in "snow land" sure have it bad!

My personal scale:
40F = F'ing cold - like, don't go outside if you don't have to!
60F = winter wonderland (wear a jacket!)
75F = Room temperature with A/C

70-115F Is nice outside - get outside and play!

Hahaha! I'm 52, lived in the southern US with no A/C (didn't use A/C until about 26yoa). And, I've worked outside for much of my life. So, hot weather is normal to me. It's cool/cold at night (sleepy time). And, I wear long sleeve shirts/jeans until the normal day temps get to about 80F.

Regarding range - the longer the better! I try to drive from Texas to Colorado once a year. In an Ice truck driving strait through its about a 16 hr drive (with a 1 hr stop for a sit down meal). All other stops are just long enough to fill the gas tank! Less range means more stops and more time to charge at each stop! I may only want to do that once it twice a year... But, I would prefer CT have the same capability or as close as possible. Also, towing? When one tows a trailer that range will go to crap. So, the longer the non - tow range the better - especially, for a truck!

I was happy with the Battery Day announcements. But, I was hoping the CT figures were pre-battery day announcement tech. Unlikely, I knew. But, one can dream!

I'll likely need to figure out a way to afford the tri-motor instead of the dual.

I DO want to see the ability to supplement my home power with the CT battery! I'm planning on buying a power wall - but, this will be a large factor in that decision!

 

[Hoppi]

Regarding range - the longer the better! I try to drive from Texas to Colorado once a year. In an Ice truck driving strait through its about a 16 hr drive (with a 1 hr stop for a sit down meal). All other stops are just long enough to fill the gas tank! Less range means more stops and more time to charge at each stop! I may only want to do that once it twice a year... But, I would prefer CT have the same capability or as close as possible. Also, towing? When one tows a trailer that range will go to crap. So, the longer the non - tow range the better - especially, for a truck!

I really don’t get the people who keep saying that I or anyone else doesn’t need more than the current 500 miles of range. I get that right now people take breaks from driving to get a bite to eat and take a bio-break. And yes if you extend those break times a bit for charging then it isn’t too much of a hassle.

But what about when ever reliable FSD comes? I would like to be able to start a road trip somewhere by driving a bit in the evening, then let FSD take over the driving over night while I get a restful sleep. In the morning I wake up close to or at my destination. I’m refreshed, the CT gets a charge, and I get breakfast before starting my day. Hopefully I can get a shower sometime in the morning. If I’m at my destination there will probably be shower facilities.

I used to do 24 hr straight road trips with my parents from Seattle to Nebraska to visit the relatives. Parents would take turns driving daylight hours. I would drive all night. During the day we would make periodic stops no problem. But once the parents had gone to sleep, I would drive straight through only stopping for gas when we ran low.

Now if a tri-motor CT can get fully charged in 5 minutes, then I am fine with charging every 500 miles. Though as I get older it would be nice to tow a camper so I have my own shower with me. So I’d really like to get 500 miles of towing range.

Do I need this capability every day? No. But given the other capabilities of the CT, this kind of super range would be very nice and provide a level of freedom to match the other capabilities of the CT.

And who knows, for the rest of the family vehicles maybe we get a Nobe to tool around town with. And I think my wife wants an X for herself. She’s not a CT convert.

 

[Crissa]

I try to drive from Texas to Colorado once a year. In an Ice truck driving strait through its about a 16 hr drive (with a 1 hr stop for a sit down meal). All other stops are just long enough to fill the gas tank! Less range means more stops and more time to charge at each stop!

Actually, it's kinda the opposite - more range means stops are longer.

The best charges are barely long enough to go pee, recharge your drink, then get back to the truck.

Stop late, stop often. Keep the reserve charge low so your battery is hungry.

I can't say you can do the same trip, but Tesla is trying to make it close as possible.

I drive from the Bay Area to Portland a few times a year, and yeah, my stops are short and often once every four hours, filling up twice. But that's not a good way to drive, either.

-Crissa

 

[Dids]

I really don’t get the people who keep saying that I or anyone else doesn’t need more than the current 500 miles of range. I get that right now people take breaks from driving to get a bite to eat and take a bio-break. And yes if you extend those break times a bit for charging then it isn’t too much of a hassle.

But what about when ever reliable FSD comes? I would like to be able to start a road trip somewhere by driving a bit in the evening, then let FSD take over the driving over night while I get a restful sleep. In the morning I wake up close to or at my destination. I’m refreshed, the CT gets a charge, and I get breakfast before starting my day. Hopefully I can get a shower sometime in the morning. If I’m at my destination there will probably be shower facilities.

I used to do 24 hr straight road trips with my parents from Seattle to Nebraska to visit the relatives. Parents would take turns driving daylight hours. I would drive all night. During the day we would make periodic stops no problem. But once the parents had gone to sleep, I would drive straight through only stopping for gas when we ran low.

Now if a tri-motor CT can get fully charged in 5 minutes, then I am fine with charging every 500 miles. Though as I get older it would be nice to tow a camper so I have my own shower with me. So I’d really like to get 500 miles of towing range.

Do I need this capability every day? No. But given the other capabilities of the CT, this kind of super range would be very nice and provide a level of freedom to match the other capabilities of the CT.

And who knows, for the rest of the family vehicles maybe we get a Nobe to tool around town with. And I think my wife wants an X for herself. She’s not a CT convert.

But if FSD was doing everything couldn't it also stop and get a charge?

 

[Hoppi]

The best charges are barely long enough to go pee, recharge your drink, then get back to the truck.

Stop late, stop often. Keep the reserve charge low so your battery is hungry.

And it is possible that I’ll need to re-optimize how I do road trips. My mom used to want to stop at all the rest areas.

Driving during the day I actually enjoy seeing the sites, talking to people we meet, and finding unique experiences along the way. But then for the night driving, I’d like to just go straight through if possible.

 

[Hoppi]

But if FSD was doing everything couldn't it also stop and get a charge?

Possibly yes. But it’s been a long time since I heard anything about the robot charger. Are the super chargers fully automated like this? Or do I still need to wake up, step out into the cold, plug in, and get fully woken up while I wait for the charge?

 

[ajdelange]

I live in a cold area of Canada - Quebec. Average temp in winter is -10 to -15C approx. It does go to -20C or lower for perhaps 15+ days a winter. -30C would be exceedingly rare, say 5 days a year. A bad 20-25 days a year in range isn’t going to sway my purchase of a CT!

To be honest I've never driven a BEV in -20 °C ( - 4 °F) (I flee Quebec when the weather heads in that direction) but I believe a lot of the "you will lose half your range" comments to be residual FUD from the days before the more effective heat management systems the cars have these days. Now when the temperature gets to - 20 °C the heat pump isn't going to work any more and if the inverters, motors and battery internal resistance are not producing enough heat to keep it warm it will have to be heated electrically and when it is -20 °C out you are going to want cabin heat and that has to come from the battery too so you will lose range. But if you keep the car plugged in at night you will not a cold soaked battery to deal with in the AM at least. I realize that this isn't always possible.

 

[ajdelange]

I really don’t get the people who keep saying that I or anyone else doesn’t need more than the current 500 miles of range. I get that right now people take breaks from driving to get a bite to eat and take a bio-break. And yes if you extend those break times a bit for charging then it isn’t too much of a hassle.

What most of them say is that most people most of the time don't need 500 miles range and that's quite true. But there are, of course, exceptions.

Look at the chart in #78. It says that with a V3 charger you ought to be able to pick up 60% charge from 10% in 27 minutes. That's 250 miles in the CT. That hardly seems burdensome to me. You ought to be able to leave home with 90%, travel 400 miles to 10%, (5 miles per percent) add 300 miles (60 % by charging to 70% SoC) in 37 minutes, drive down to 10% again and add 300 miles in another 37 min. and arrive at your destination, 1000 miles from home, with 10% reserve having spent only an hour and a quarter charging added to 15 and a half hours of driving at 65. Or you could go 700 miles with a single 37 minute stop.

But what about when ever reliable FSD comes?

Unless you are a rather young man I wouldn't worry about that eventuality. It certainly won't happen in the time you will have your CT. By the time it does the BEVs will probably have 700 - 1000 mile range.

Now if a tri-motor CT can get fully charged in 5 minutes, then I am fine with charging every 500 miles.

That's unrealistic from several POVs. First, you do not, even occasionally on a road trip, want to dip into the above 90% SoC (well maybe rarely when departing home where you can take as long as you want to charge) and/or below 10% SoC parts of the battery range (except as necessary to make it to a charger if a plan goes awry). Second, as the chart shows it can take as long to charge from 70% to 100% as it does to charge from 10% to 70%. To charge from 10 - 90% is going to take more than an hour. Appreciably more for high taper. It is much more time efficient to charge to lower levels more frequently but it does mean extra stops.

Note that it might be possible to halve all the charging times in the chart. This is "simply" done by doubling the capacity of the charger. I theorize that Tesla might do this by doing with the CT what they do with the Semi which is have multiple charging ports each of which connects to a separate charger (or to a charger with two hoses which is really two chargers in one cabinet). They would have to build separate CT stalls (which they are going to do) but each would have to have access to two chargers. They have made no implications that they will do that. The other possibility is to allow CTs to access the charging stations the Semis will use. But there aren't any of those yet. It's nice to fantasize, though. I could do my 600 mile annual migration with a single charging stop of 17 minutes. Better than my ICE SUVs refueling requirements.

Though as I get older it would be nice to tow a camper so I have my own shower with me. So I’d really like to get 500 miles of towing range.

You can forget that. You'd need a CT with 1000 - 1500 mi range.