Cybertruck Towing during cross-country trek

[TruckElectric]

I think a couple of Tesla fan boi's are upset at some very plain truth about towing.

Fact : EV's suck at towing.
Fact : Cybertruck towing 14,000 lbs, will absolutely get impractically teeny tiny range.

To any impartial interested audience following, you have been abundantly warned.
For everyone else, standby for some fun entertainment and some pretty pissed off Cybertruck customers soon.

Bye Felicia!

Advertisement

 

[ajdelange]

I guess I'll agree that people who don't understand the basic physics of the situation may be surprised but this is going to include those who expect typical towing range to be 450 miles AND those who think it's going to be 50. As Cher said in Witches of Eastwick "I'm sort of in the middle, myself".

I would suggest that people not familiar with the physics use what used to be called common sense but that is, alas, not very common any more.

 

[Geo]

Perhaps you have not seen the video in which Ford (was it?) hooked up one of their prototype vehicled and towed a train consisting of dozens of railway cars full of trucks. Would you like to reconsider that statement?

Yes I have.
How long did they do it for ?
How far did they travel ?
How many seconds !!!!

NO ELECTRIC FORD CAN NOT TOW 1 MILLION POUNDS. ( hint, its a meaningless stunt !!!)

 

[Crissa]

No.

Air resistance matters.
Motor configuration matters.

The configuration of the windings of a motor changes its efficiency at different torque loads. This is something known for a hundred years (I literally have a book on my shelf first published in the 30s). Our ability to actually make those windings is mostly what has advanced.

Windings are like gearing, but magnetic (massive simplification.)

The Cybertruck will not use the same motor as the X. Not the same windings. So different efficiency at different loads.

-Crissa

 

[Crissa]

(Missing because Geo doesn't use quotes right)

Again, that's not how quotes work.

And they literally towed a million pounds so... Not sure why you'd deny it? It was a stupid stunt, yes, because trains have lower rolling resistance. But it still happened.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

Yes I have.
How long did they do it for ?
How far did they travel ?
How many seconds !!!!

NO ELECTRIC FORD CAN NOT TOW 1 MILLION POUNDS. ( hint, its a meaningless stunt !!!)

I'd forgotten that it was an electric truck! Thanks for posting it. That is really, really cool. It is, of course, a marketing gimick becuase, as I said, the rolling resistance of steel on steel is very small.

But how can you say an electric Ford can't tow 1.25 million pounds when we see it before our very eyes. How long did they do it for? How long did they travel? Not far and not long but the point is that the power draw was 16.8 kWh! With the CT's 180 kWh battery they could have done this for 10.7 hours and gone 48 miles. So they have demonstrated that a BEV with a 180 kWh battery can tow 1.25 million pounds 48 miles.

Saving the best for last they would burn 16.8 kWh in an hour of this and travel 4.5 miles for
16800/4.5 = 3733.33 so tell me again why a CT is going to burn 3200 pulling 14,000 lbs. Scaling by weights under the same conditions pulling 14000 lbs would require 59.7 Wh/mi. Before anyone says "Whoa, what are you trying to pull here" remember that we aren't pulling something on rails (with the very low rolling resistanve) and we aren't pulling at 4.5 mph in any realistic scenario so that our continuous load would be appreciably more than 60 Wh/mi. But it clearly won't be as much as 3200 either (unless going up hill against a headwind in with a trailer than has huge frontal area and really big drag coefficient).

So watch the whole video and try to understand what the guy is telling you. And if that doesn't work ask yourself again why Tesla would advertise a product that only pulls its specified load 40 miles.

 

[Geo]

Again, that's not how quotes work.

And they literally towed a million pounds so... Not sure why you'd deny it? It was a stupid stunt, yes, because trains have lower rolling resistance. But it still happened.

-Crissa

Yes it did happen, your're quite right.

I see your point now, I think you're right, you may be able to tow 14,000 lb/s for 500 miles !

You just need to be willing to take 5 minutes to carefully accelerate up to 4 mph and stay on absolutely level ground, with no wind or rain around. And be willing to take a week out of your life

But then I think the law won't allow you to do that either.
They will require you get permits, and lead and tail safety vehicles around you for safety.
But none the less, your right, its still physically possible.
Just like digging a tunnel through a mountain with a spoon, it is physically possible, given enough time !

P.S. How cool was Shawshank Redemption

 

[ajdelange]

Fact : EV's suck at towing.

No more so that ICE vehicles. The physics are the same. The difference is that you can buy an ICE vehicle with an 800 mile gas tank in it so that when the trailer drops your range in half you still have 400.

Fact : Cybertruck towing 14,000 lbs, will absolutely get impractically teeny tiny range.

Depends on what you consider impractical and buyers should be thinking about this. The EPA 500 mile vehicle is, practically speaking, a 375 mile vehicle. Towing a large trailer will cut that down to 187 miles or less under adverse conditions. If this is a major concern you might want to wait until some data regarding actual range under actual conditions with real trailers comes in.

When you get buyers remorse, when you discover how much range you lose when towing, especially if the Vault is open, you can try to console yourself you ordered a 300 mile or 500 mile Cybertruck but got a 400 mile or 700 mile one.

I'll take that deal! But unless all your driving is down hill or your towing involves going up a mountain empty and coming down with a load of rocks it ain't going to happen.

An interesting question I'd love to know the answer to is :
What impacts range more, carrying my bike in the bed, which means the vault stays open, or towing the bike on a trailer weighing 150 kg ? (bike and trailer combined equal about 260 kg)

You aren't going to get an answer to that until you try it both ways. It depends on the relative drag.

 

[ajdelange]

I see your point now, I think you're right,

There is no question of my being right (or the other engineer in the video - he knows what he is talking about). If you really see the point you will be able to extrapolate the train data to more reasonable on the road truck pulling trailer scenarios and fully understand why we are right.

 

[Geo]

Depends on what you consider impractical and buyers should be thinking about this. The EPA 500 mile vehicle is, practically speaking, a 375 mile vehicle. Towing a large trailer will cut that down to 187 miles or less under adverse conditions. If this is a major concern you might want to wait until some data regarding actual range under actual conditions with real trailers comes in.

That rough rule of thumb is more or less right for when towing something around 4000 lbs.

14,000 lbs will be far more severe. Simple physics.

(unless perhaps you have all the time in the world, and tow at 4 mph)

P.S. Hey, that's less than walking pace, you could put it in autopilot and "drive" it from the outside, while stretching your legs, over the next 2 weeks your journey takes.

You could go run up ahead, get coffee and wait for it to come past !

Think of all the things you could do, "not driving"

 

[Crissa]

I see your point now, I think you're right, you may be able to tow 14,000 lb/s for 500 miles !

Do you know what a straw man argument is?

14,000 lbs will be far more severe. Simple physics.

No, because it's not linear. Weight only matters in how much it increases your rolling resistance - once you're moving, it actually helps you keep moving. 'Helps' as in, 'Is actually kinda hard to stop'.

Another reason to have a DC connection in the trailer hookup? So that we can have regenerative braking hubs on a trailer.

-Crissa

 

[Geo]

Do you know what a straw man argument is?

-Crissa

There's no fabricated or distorted issue raised as a target to attack with an argument.
And I didn't raise the issue.

The issue is about towing 14,000 pounds, what range is possible while doing so.
What is the severe reduction from the normal 500 mile EPA rating.

My points all go to address this.

And once again, the Cybertruck being able to tow 14,000 lbs in the first place,
is an impressive achievement. How long it can do it for, is definitely not.

 

[ldjessee]

There's no fabricated or distorted issue raised as a target to attack with an argument.
And I didn't raise the issue.

The issue is about towing 14,000 pounds, what range is possible while doing so.
What is the severe reduction from the normal 500 mile EPA rating.

My points all go to address this.

And once again, the Cybertruck being able to tow 14,000 lbs in the first place,
is an impressive achievement. How long it can do it for, is definitely not.

Your ability to not see things (or pretend not to) is amazing.

Neither AJ nor Crissa said someone would get 500 miles while pulling 14,000 lbs. You said that, which is your straw-man argument.

I know that if the trailer fits within the wake shadow of the tractor (the vehicle pulling the trailer), it will be much less energy to move.

FYI, a Model X pulled a plane as a publicity stunt... Smooth airport, but not as smooth as rails.

And while computer modeling for aerodynamics and such has really advanced, still we do real world testing. I am going to wait for real world testing with a trailer that was designed to fit in the wake shadow of a CyberTruck. Then we will know just how much energy it takes a CyberTruck to tow 14,000lbs and how far it can tow that load for.

My little story about towing heavy things is a company that I was on the edge of the area they are comfortable doing work. They towed an earth moving machine (not sure the exact make and model) but they towed it with a F-350. They towed it 61 miles to my house, unloaded it, worked all day long, then towed it back 61 miles. They drove the truck 14 miles (round trip) to get lunch.

The earth moving machine was used to landscape my yard after foundation work was done. They used more fuel in the diesel F-350 than did the earth moving machine all day did.

I think a CyberTruck could have towed this machine, as I remember asking how heavy it was and he said about 10,000 lbs. Seemed heavy to me, but he said the weights and such to keep it stable made them always much heavier than they looked. He could have been lying, but anyway, the distance of 61 miles in his F-350 truck was such that he did not want to come back the next day and finish, he wanted to finish that night and be done with it.

There is no science in that story, but I think it gives an example that towing a 14,000lb loaded trailer 100 to 150 miles would be well worth many businesses to own...

My use cases will probably never get to 10,000 lbs, which is why I reserved a Dual motor CyberTruck. If I do talk the wife into selling the house and buying an RV, then I will just trade in the CyberTruck Dual for a Tri. The cost will still be 1/3 to 1/4 of the RV.

 

[ajdelange]

That rough rule of thumb is more or less right for when towing something around 4000 lbs.

14,000 lbs will be far more severe. Simple physics.

Perhaps it would help if you would set out the simple physics so we could discuss the individual load components.

 

[Geo]

Your ability to not see things (or pretend not to) is amazing.

Neither AJ nor Crissa said someone would get 500 miles while pulling 14,000 lbs. You said that, which is your straw-man argument.

I like you Lloyd, you're funny,
Yes, I stated that, but no, that is not my argument, at all !!!!!!!

That is a colourful description taking their silly point that the F150 (and yes the Cybertruck Too) can tow 1 Million Pounds. Therefore under those conditions, it can maybe do 500 miles towing 14,000 pounds at 4 mph, if it took 5 min to carefully accelerate upto that speed while on flat ground for the entire 500 mile distance.
Hence my remark about digging a tunnel through mountain with a spoon.


Comprehension seems is your weakness, from a number of angles !!

I still hold to the point, and politely repeat it for you again, that while towing 14,000 pounds under normal expected, terrain and traffic conditions. ( ie not 4mph on flat ground for the whole journey)
The Cybertruck's 500 mile range will drop severely to about 50 miles !
Towing just approx. 4000 lbs will more than halve the range alone, if not drop it by 2/3 !
Which is aligned with Aj's rule of thumb that EPA 500 mile range will drop to about 187 mile.

Where he and I differ, is he incredibly believes going from approx. 4000 lbs to 14,000, will make a negligible difference !!